re-action hand , what is it good for?

[DokterVet]

Interesting topic. Here's my perspective, as someone who trained in karate regularly for 8 years, and is starting to change his training methods.

I see the reaction hand as doing more harm than good.

In basics you pull back to the hip:

1. so you maintain control of both arms while your performing techniques.

Wouldn't ensuring that you hold your hand up to guard your face teach you to maintain control as well? With the added benefit of engraining the habit of protecting your face?

2. So you are aware that you can grab and pull your opponent with the hand that isnt attacking/defending (hikite).

"So you are aware"? Well the teacher can tell you to be aware of such a technique without sacrificing the form of the basic punch can't he? Instructor to student: "Be aware that you can grab and pull your opponent." He can then have the students drill such a technique with a partner.

Also, without drilling with a partner (actually grabbing an opponents arm) simply 'being aware' won't help a slight bit. So why not train these as two seperate techniques (punching in free-moving range vs punching while grabbing).

3. So you learn the mechanics of the technique.

You explain how a practitioner would learn more by adding an extraneous motion - pulling back a reaction hand - that is not a part of the technique in practice, than practicing the technique with proper form?

In application, the techniques are more "free-flowing" so your hands will either be:

1. In a guard (getting ready to do something)

This should be the most common situation in which one would throw a punch. So why not drill it this way when practicing basics?

or...

2. Actually doing something (blocking, attacking, redirecting, grabbing etc.)

So drill blocking and punching and grabbing and punching. How does establishing the habit of pulling the fist to the side of the body help one perform such techniques?

To sum up the pros and cons of practicing reaction hand when punching the way I see it:

Pros

-"maintain control of both arms while you're performing techniques"

(HIGHLY QUESTIONABLE - see above)

-"So you are aware that you can grab and pull your opponent with the hand that isnt attacking/defending "

(QUESTIONABLE BENEFIT - see above)

- "Learn the mechanics of the techinque"

(QUESTIONABLE - see above)

-Makes cool snapping noise when done wearing a gi

(AWESOME!)

Cons

- Exposes face

- Forces next attack to come from the hip

I look forward to comments.

EDIT: fixed problem with quote

[wolfman]

From what i know of other martial arts the withdrawing hand (or the hand that gets chambered to the hip) is suppose to be chambering to withdraw a weapon like a knife or stick or something.

I havent done any type of karate, but it seems to me this was the original intent behind the withdrawing hand.

[Shorin Ryuu]

The "chambering" was basically what they told everyone the movement was for. Keep in mind that traditional Okinawan (and Japanese) culture was very much centered on "in group" and "out group" relations. When karate was starting to be taught to the mainstream (in the early 1900s on Okinawa), there was a fundamental shift because karate used to be taught in very small groups of well-acquainted people or recommended students, not en masse. This then became the origin of large karate classes taught in military discipline fashion...They weren't exactly going to tell everyone all the in-depth meanings of everything, especially American GI's a half-century later who just got done devestating the island of Okinawa. They didn't even tell every Japanese or Okinawan the "good stuff" either. The mass production of karate meant less individual training time and less personal trust between teacher and student. Karate was always first and foremost a combative discipline. The deeper knowledge of which was not simply handed out to whoever showed up and trained. There are exceptions to this, but suffice it to say they were not always as open as many American instructors definitely are or as some Okinawan teachers are today.

Back to the chambering part...I do not see that as the true intent of the technique. It really does depend on the situation. In many of our kata, there are places where the hands do not automatically go back into "chamber" before performing the next technique. What's more, you have to keep in mind that with all techniques, they are set up a certain way but will be performed as the situation requires.

On to the explanation...I for one believe it is meant primarily to be a grab with the retracting hand and punch with the leading hand. It is basically a grab/parry that is performed simultaneously with a strike, which I believe technically what most of us are aiming for (simultaneous techniques along the vein of more Chinese styles).

This concept is also present on many of our "blocks" where the retracting hand/arm/wrist crosses over the blocking hand/arm/wrist. This is because the real intent is to grab the opponent's attack with the retracting hand while striking either the opponent's body (i.e. face), breaking whatever he attacked with (i.e. arm) or performing a throw (i.e. arm bar) with the "blocking" arm. There are those who say the retracting hand is there to let the person "be aware" that you can pull a person while punching if you want to. I disagree. The retracting hand is there because it is saying you SHOULD pull a person like that. It forms the heart and principle of many of the techniques of good Okinawan karate.

With this in mind, bringing the retracting hand to your waist (I originally wrote down wrist on accident) is useful because it hyperextends the opponent's appendage, causes the opponent to lose their balance, and places it in a position where it is biomechanically strong for you to hold the opponent. It also allows more momentum into the system by making your opponent move towards you as you strike into him. At the most basic level, it also forms an easier connection between the hand and waist for most beginners, although that is probably the weakest argument for the fist chambering.

This also reflects a difference in the mindset of the practitioners. The most common detraction against the chambered fist says it leaves your face open, etc. In the more traditional schools, by which I mean traditional focus, mindset and training...NOT gi, hardwood floors, military discipline, etc., these techniques were meant to end the fight quickly. Therefore, pulling the hand back was because you were pulling the opponent into you and from that position you were simultaneously striking him/breaking something and most likely taking him down instantly to end the fight. It is my opinion that traditional karate is centered around getting in close and going for the takedown. Therefore a retraction hand technique was a set up for finishing the fight, rather than having an exchange of blows. You can see this in pictures of how most of the old Okinawan masters had their regular fighting stances, which were not one hand chambered to the side.

If you blindly chamber your fist to the side without having any idea what it is for then I will agree with those detractors who say it is useless. For them, it is.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Shorin Ryuu

[DokterVet]

Interesting post, Shorin Ryuu.

I disagree with the philosophy that a every punch will begin with grabbing the opponent and pulling him toward you, and that such a technique should be seen as a fight ender.

But I suppose if one subscribes to those ideas, then the reaction hand makes some sense.

[ninjanurse]

As we train over the years these types of things become evident to us but as beginners we are usually taught to do things without explanation and are left to discover on our own. It brings to mind the question of which method makes more sense given that we are not meant to become "experts" in a few short years of training (traditionally speaking).

[wolfman]

So Shorin Ryuu was the retracting hand ever used to grab a weapon? I've done a few Indonesian styles that had a lot of hand chambering to the waist, and for them it was always to withdraw a weapon.

[Chemical Burn]

hey Shorin Ryuu do you know of any website out there that shows the steps for pinan yondan, pinan godan, and naihanchi nidan & sandan??

[Shorin Ryuu]

Interesting post, Shorin Ryuu.

I disagree with the philosophy that a every punch will begin with grabbing the opponent and pulling him toward you, and that such a technique should be seen as a fight ender.

But I suppose if one subscribes to those ideas, then the reaction hand makes some sense.

Thanks. As far as saying every single punch should start with a pull towards you, perhaps I worded that a bit strongly. However, I wasn't so much stating that the punch itself would be a fight ender. I was talking about the other applications of the retraction hand (during a block for example which breaks an arm and takes someone down). In some cases, a punch isn't merely just a punch either...but I digress.

So Shorin Ryuu was the retracting hand ever used to grab a weapon? I've done a few Indonesian styles that had a lot of hand chambering to the waist, and for them it was always to withdraw a weapon.

Forgive me, but could you clarify this? By this statement do you mean was the retraction ever used to grab an opponent's weapon and pull it off to the side? If so, I guess that could be the case. I could see that as being a valid technique. I think it would be more effective to control the person's hand or arm rather than the weapon itself in many circumstances. If you try only to control the weapon (although there are certainly ways you can do this depending on what weapon it is) it becomes a match of who is better at manipulating the weapon in question.

hey Shorin Ryuu do you know of any website out there that shows the steps for pinan yondan, pinan godan, and naihanchi nidan & sandan??

I do not know of any that come to mind. That being said, there are so many versions of the pinan and naihanchi kata out there, even if there was it may or may not have the ones you are specifically looking for. Certainly some are more similar than others. What specific style/lineage of Shorin Ryu do you do? While I may not be of much help, there may be other people who take the same style you do and may know of such resources.

[pers]

From what I learned the "reaction" hand could be anything.

It can grab and immobilize and attacking limb, pull a opponent closer

or assist the "punching" hand in applying some sort of limb manipulation.

The list just goes on and on. I have learned that the application happens

while the limbs are moving not when they come to rest at the end.

"reaction hand should stay up all the time to pick up the second punch/move"

That would be a good guard position but when you start moving then it

becomes depenent on the situation.

I hope this helps.

Nintai ,you put it to words very nicely ,so did ninjanuse,angela,G95champ and cross ,I just want to draw your attention to some moves in katas nidan,sandan ,yondan ,godan .

In hein yondan there is a part when the left hand performs a palm hand wpeeping block across your face and the right hand makes a palm hand stike to the side of visionary opponent ,same with double block and strike in hein nidan .these are some examples into why it is trained in basics ,

in agreeing in principal with all of you I just add improving body coordination between different limbs and the brain ,doing diferrent things at once is better than doing them randomly ,that millie second could one day save your life !

[wolfman]

wolfman wrote:

So Shorin Ryuu was the retracting hand ever used to grab a weapon? I've done a few Indonesian styles that had a lot of hand chambering to the waist, and for them it was always to withdraw a weapon.

shorin ryu wrote

Forgive me, but could you clarify this? By this statement do you mean was the retraction ever used to grab an opponent's weapon and pull it off to the side? If so, I guess that could be the case. I could see that as being a valid technique. I think it would be more effective to control the person's hand or arm rather than the weapon itself in many circumstances. If you try only to control the weapon (although there are certainly ways you can do this depending on what weapon it is) it becomes a match of who is better at manipulating the weapon in question.

I mean reaching toward your waist to withdraw your weapon in your holster or something.