biggest differences between Shotokan & Kyokushin????

[DaChroniclez]

OSU, thats amazing he fought that fight for 10 minutes with 4 broken ribs, wow. Great example of the spirit of OSU.

[pers]

pers, you are correct, but only to a certain extent imo. If you are good at kihon, you will have fairly strong techniques and be decent at kumite, same goes for kata and kumite. but you will in no way be a great fighter. to become one of those you must train all aspects, including lots of kumite. This is what i find many dojo's neglecting. Mostly because of the insurance policies in north america. They pretend that if you do kihon and kata, and some preset kumite, you will be a great fighter. this is a very very very big misconception. I have a friend who does Shoto-Ryu karate and he is one of the top fighter (point sparring) in bc. but he has not one bit of a clue about how a real fight situation would go. He believes that one hit should do it (since in his kumite the fight stops when someone gets a point). he doesnt do combos, and he is not used to a fighting atmosphere. He would get nervous and shocked when his one hit doesnt knock the enemy out.

Dear friend ,If you read my post carefully I have said it takes much effort to master the techniques ,by that I meant exactly the point you are making about point scoring !

the perfect technique must have correct bio mechanic,s perfect timing ,distance(peneteration) and speed and power . When you have all that and can hit some one with it ,that is the perfect technique ,one blow and finish !

What I stated about kihon,kata and kumite is that they are all part of the traingle ,without one the other two are weak ,they are integral parts of each other.

I do not underestimate the importance of kumite ,it is just as important as the other two .But one must first learn to walk before he can run and kihon is the preparatory work and the base to be able to do kumite well !

[DaChroniclez]

pers, you are correct, but only to a certain extent imo. If you are good at kihon, you will have fairly strong techniques and be decent at kumite, same goes for kata and kumite. but you will in no way be a great fighter. to become one of those you must train all aspects, including lots of kumite. This is what i find many dojo's neglecting. Mostly because of the insurance policies in north america. They pretend that if you do kihon and kata, and some preset kumite, you will be a great fighter. this is a very very very big misconception. I have a friend who does Shoto-Ryu karate and he is one of the top fighter (point sparring) in bc. but he has not one bit of a clue about how a real fight situation would go. He believes that one hit should do it (since in his kumite the fight stops when someone gets a point). he doesnt do combos, and he is not used to a fighting atmosphere. He would get nervous and shocked when his one hit doesnt knock the enemy out.

When you have all that and can hit some one with it ,that is the perfect technique ,one blow and finish !

thats the other misconception imo. Point sparring styles practice that if you execute the technique perfectly then the fight will be over after one hit. We more than anyone believe in the one strike one death mentality, but you must always prepare for this not to be the case. because sometimes that hit wont phase your opponent as much as you thought. You know wat im saying? I just feel that kyokushin stresses the mechanics of a fight moreso than dojos of other styles, FROM WHAT I"VE SEEN. Im not going to argue at all about whether or not there are some really tought ahrdcore shotokan, or other karate style dojos outh there. but generally speaking, this is my concensous. Also the reason would a blue belt from my dojo could dominate tope fighters from other dojos (seen it).

btw, i would not like this to come off at all as an attack against your style ora boasting up of mine. Its just my prespective on learning the arts, whatever the style may be. You are 100% correct about using the 3 parts, kata, kumite, kihon. But if you do kihon and kata a 100%, then you must also do kumite at a 100%.

[pers]

[]

When you have all that and can hit some one with it ,that is the perfect technique ,one blow and finish !

We more than anyone believe in the one strike one death mentality, but you must always prepare for this not to be the case. because sometimes that hit wont phase your opponent as much as you thought. You know wat im saying? I just feel that kyokushin stresses the mechanics of a fight moreso than dojos of other styles, FROM WHAT I"VE SEEN. Im not going to argue at all about whether or not there are some really tought ahrdcore shotokan, or other karate style dojos outh there. but generally speaking, this is my concensous. Also the reason would a blue belt from my dojo could dominate tope fighters from other dojos (seen it).

btw, i would not like this to come off at all as an attack against your style ora boasting up of mine. Its just my prespective on learning the arts, whatever the style may be. You are 100% correct about using the 3 parts, kata, kumite, kihon. But if you do kihon and kata a 100%, then you must also do kumite at a 100%.

I agree with what you say about being prepared to continue incase your technique don't do the job ,but I am saying the ultimate aim is to have such a good and perfect technique to finish it with one blow.

You have every right to think that your style stresses most the mechanics of a fight ,but I think tha same way about shotokan ! and I can tell you that most visiting karatekas to our dojo had a hard time against people of lower grade ! so what does this tell you ?

Now that you brought it up ,I must say from what kyokoshin competition I have seen ,I was not impressed by the way that fighters square up and exchange blow for blow without any evasion and effort not to get hit !

My idea of karate and martial arts (self defence ) is to hit and not to get hit ! by not being there !

this is the way i have learned and the concept of kyukoshin does not suit me and my beliefs ,the fact that there are no head shots doesen''t prepare you for the street ,in the street you can not afford to stand up to some one and let them hit you and then hit back ,no matter how tough you are and how much conditioning you have done !

Avoiding to get hit must be the first on any martial artists agenda ,

The only way a small person can overcome a much bigger opponent is to have enough skill to avoid his attack and hit him with faster and stronger technique .not easy but true masters are able to do this.

regards

[y2_sub]

Now that you brought it up ,I must say from what kyokoshin competition I have seen ,I was not impressed by the way that fighters square up and exchange blow for blow without any evasion and effort not to get hit !

My idea of karate and martial arts (self defence ) is to hit and not to get hit ! by not being there !

"the block is not the only defense. Training your body so hard that the blows would not affect you is another good form of defense " Oyama Sosai once said .

Quoting from Master Gichin Funakoshi's book {karate do my way of life }:

"Once, as he [itosu] was about to enter a restaurant in Naha's amusement center, a sturdy young man attacked him from the rear, aiming a hearty blow at his side. But the latter, without even turning, hardened the muscles of his stomach so that the blow glanced off his body, and at the very same instant his right hand grasped the right wrist of his assailant. Still without turning his head, he calmly dragged the man inside the restaurant" Knowing that Yasutsune Itosu Sensei is one of Funakoshi's teachers .

the fact that there are no head shots doesen''t prepare you for the street

The fact of retrieving your hand after each and every strike does not prepare you for the street .

Even wearing gloves and striking head with full contact does not prepare you for the street , since gloves will make hands bigger so they cover much of your head and opponent strike would be much easier to block than real life.

There are only 4 inches between the chest and the head , a person able to strike chest with full power in competition is also able to strike head with full power in real situation , a fighter able to knock down another well conditioned fighter with a strike to the stomach is definitely able to knock down a human with a single hand strike to the head ( real life )

Plus , head strikes are not allowed in competition , however, we do train on them regularly ( Kihon , kata ...... )

in the street you can not afford to stand up to some one and let them hit you and then hit back ,no matter how tough you are and how much conditioning you have done !

Do you actually belive that a Kyokushin Karate-ka would stand there and wait for the attack ?? from what you have seen you must know by now that Kyokushin karate-kas are offensive and thats why "fighters square up and exchange blow for blow" .

The only way a small person can overcome a much bigger opponent is to have enough skill to avoid his attack and hit him with faster and stronger technique .not easy but true masters are able to do this.

There is a better way STRIKE HIM FIRST . as mentioned ,We more than anyone believe in the one strike one death mentality .

Something to mention here , yes , fighters square off and exchange blows , they do also BLOCK most of the blows , by covering the targeted area , same terminlogie exist in other fighting styles like in boxing when one covers his face while his opponent perform a combination ,I can block one strike heading to me ( in a strike - block - strike system ) but can't just block or avoid all the moves in a combination of attacks thats were your body must be prepared , got my point ??? .

Edited May 28, 2005 by y2_sub

[Osu No Seichin]

Kihon is the alphabet, kata the words, kumite the sentences....

DaChroniclez-was he really a blue belt or a man who has trained for a long time and is just wearing a blue belt....I think dominate is a pretty strong word, yes he won but to say he dominated well....having corner judged and refereed at a great many tornaments i have seen people dominate, and I have seen people win, he won.

Pers- I agree with some of what you say, yes evaison is a great way to fight and yes the Kyokushin fighters tend to stand toe to toe and go at it, but climb in the ring and see how much evaison you get done before he catches you and you can't get away. Want to win then you have to stand in there and fight, simple as that and trust me you aren't going to block them all, no matter how good you are, just the way it is.....

I have trained Kyokushin for many years, have seen the TKD guy's the shotokan guy's and all the rest come into the dojo and tournaments to fight and train. It all ends up the same, they lose we win, mostly because they are not used to fighting by our rules and our style. It would probably be the same if we went and trained with them and sparred with them, we are so ingrained in what we do to start point fighting would be a hard thing to do, not impossible but different.

Kyokushin is noted for it's knockdown fighting, is it the essence of Kyokushin? NO.... read the books, study with the people who train Kyokushin the way it was meant to be trained and you will find that the knockdown tournament part is a very small aspect of Kyokushin. Kumite is a part, but there is so much more...all we do is connected in some way to fighting, so i suggest to go out expand your horizons and see how much more there is to Kyokushin than just knockdown fighting, because some day...you will be too old to just fight.....

And my feeling...if you don't do basics and you don't do kata, you don't do Karate.

[DaChroniclez]

Osu No Seichin, i agree with mostly everything you said, and i very much agree with the last part "if you don't do basics and you don't do kata, you don't do Karate." I am in no way opposing this.

Osu No Seichin, one thing i will disagree with you on is about the blue belt from my dojo. He has been training very very seriously for one year, before that he came to teh dojo once a week and was even late often. He has now one first place in lightweight division in North American Selection tourney for World Tournament in Tokyo. When i say he dominated top fighter, I mean dominate, no only win. He went to the world tournament, althought he lost, he felt nothing, and had more than enough conditioning to lose the fight in a close call (due to experience mostly) but come out without even a scratch.

The point im making is, train hard and become a great fighter, train moderate, and you will be a moderate fighter. Train once and week, and you will be nothing.

What you put in, is what you get out.

OSU!!

[pers]

Kihon is the alphabet, kata the words, kumite the sentences....

Pers- I agree with some of what you say, yes evaison is a great way to fight and yes the Kyokushin fighters tend to stand toe to toe and go at it, but climb in the ring and see how much evaison you get done before he catches you and you can't get away. Want to win then you have to stand in there and fight, simple as that and trust me you aren't going to block them all, no matter how good you are, just the way it is.....

I have trained Kyokushin for many years, have seen the TKD guy's the shotokan guy's and all the rest come into the dojo and tournaments to fight and train. It all ends up the same, they lose we win, mostly because they are not used to fighting by our rules and our style. It would probably be the same if we went and trained with them and sparred with them, we are so ingrained in what we do to start point fighting would be a hard thing to do, not impossible but different.

. Kumite is a part, but there is so much more...all we do is connected in some way to fighting, so i suggest to go out expand your horizons and see how much more there is to Kyokushin than just knockdown fighting, because some day...you will be too old to just fight.....

And my feeling...if you don't do basics and you don't do kata, you don't do Karate.

Thank you for taking time to answer , my experience with kyukoshin is from a few competitions I have seen ,

My point about evasion is that you mentally always do your best to avoid an attack ,of course you are not always able to do that and pick up a few shots but that must be your ultimate aim not to get hit and find opportunities to hit your opponent .

My idea of karate is not with competions and entering rings ,there is nothing wrong with that ,but mine is purely for self defence ,and for that I don't need to condition myself to go 10 rounds in the ring , most street fights end in matter of seconds ( in the unfortunate situation of having to fight some one ) , for this I try to perfect my techniques by doing kihon ,broaden my horizen by learning katas and gaining experience and learning tactics and strategy by doing kumite, also by doing kumite i try to build a stronger spirit evry time .

Avoiding to get hit by taie sabaki (body evasion ) is a skill on its own and is what I constantly try to improve ,is part of strategy and manipulation that is vital to a good self defence system .

I am positive that what i have mentioned exists in all good kyukoshin dojos and any other styles of karate and it is not unique to just one style ,

as martial artists we must look beyond competion arena ,competition is a good experience but is only a small part of martial arts.but it must look realistic enough to prepare the person for the real thing .

[Meguro]

The reason many Kyokushin fighters stand toe-to toe in a knockdown competition is because there is a time limit. You've got to knock down your opponent in the quickest time possible. You can dance around, evade, and use that deadly "one strike" in point tournaments, and win. In a Kyokushin competition, this strategy will cost you the match. If you aren't conditioned to take the physical punishment your opponent is going to be dealing you, you will lose and get hurt.

Of course, a Kyokushin fighter would have to adjust his/her fighting style in a point tournament. Personally, I think it's easier dialing it down than up.

[Osu No Seichin]

Having trained Kyokushin for close to 30 years i would have to say it is much easier to dial it up than it is to dial it down. In our tournaments we have continuous non-contact as well as knockdown fighting, beleive me there gets to be a lot of contact in the non-contact, you get very used to hitting someone and to just "dial" it down is really hard to do. Not saying it can't be done, would just take some training and alot of discipline.

I agree you must be conditioned to take the punishment or you will lose, unless you get in a lucky shot and take your opponent out.