Wasted or necessary movements

[P.A.L]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata...

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Just curious to see differen't views. Thanks.

from fighting point of view

1-waste

2-good

3-no zenkutsud achi

4-

[unknownstyle]

i dont see anything wrong with any of that

[SANCHIN31]

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

Not wasted or unnecessary. The movement has fighting and self defense applications IMO.

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

Good.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

Should be slightly bent.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

Thumb should never be bent .

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

Spear hand.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

Good.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

Not for me,I'm a 3/4 turn believer.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

Doesn't matter if the application is known,but I have it down.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

Good.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

You have to think in terms of the whole movement to know the defensive applications.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Wrong.

[wyx]

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

The opposite hand blocks the attack and then you grab with the same hand. The striking hand has to come up high so as to come above the arm you have grabbed, so as to strike to the neck while pulling the grabbed arm.

nice post btw.

[Zaine]

It really sall dependes on how you d the moves, if you do them wide spread, then yeah that would be wasted movements, but if you did them tight and close to you and simple then it wouldnt, like i said, it all depends on you

[Kajukenbopr]

if you understand those movements as waste of effort, you do not comprehend how the movement is done.

Most people who train to fight however, will overlook most of the movements you mentioned and go for shorter, more incomplete movements trying to find quicker reaction. this shortened version rends the movement useless or less effective.

train like you should and all you will see all these movements are there for a reason;you will avoid being hurt and become a better martial artist.

[24fightingchickens]

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

This is wasted if you perform the block the way many books show you to where you first chamber up and then let go with the blocking movement. If you rather interpret this as a passing block with a simultaneous punch followed by a downward strike to a joint that you have grabbed with the hand you just punched with, it is not wasted at all.

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

This makes kata look very snappy and expert, doesn't it? I think it's a good skill in a fight as well to have the habit of snapping your head around to where you are planning to go. Cutting my eyes one way or the other provides poor vision, and nerves cause tunnel vision which makes things worse.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

Wasted. After the leg is done with the initial push forward, it becomes dead weight. There is a myth in the martial arts that force goes down the leg or something like that. It is untrue. Note a golfer, tennis pro, batter, pitcher - all end up in front stance - all lift their rear foot. It's just a tradition.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

Necessary to help prevent injury to thumb or fingers. Makes nothing stronger.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

Not wasted or necessary - simply irrelevant.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

I am stronger in a downward movement than an upper cut, just like when doing a reverse grip bench press. Therefore, I like my fist rolled over at the end so I can place it on noses and chins more easily.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

Personal preference.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

See #1.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

Personal preference. Some start them from their armpits.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Any stance is not important except that it is a snapshot of a moment in time when you have finished a technique and are using your front leg for a landing gear. The concept of a static stance shape is very novice level.

[Shorin Ryuu]

My take on the whole headsnap before a turn is that looking before you turn implies you are literally turning and then executing a technique. This is a rather basic interpretation of bunkai. What not looking while you turn implies is you are throwing a person. This is the "more advanced" and more common way to do it on Okinawa. There are some places in kata where your "look" is disconnected from the rest of your body movement, but they are much rarer and have a specific purpose.

[Kajukenbopr]

24fightingchickens

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3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi

-- if you get pushed back, or meet with something you cant push, you will want that leg behind you, giving you support and wont let you fall on your back.

Quote:

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

puts your whole wheight into the punch.not just cause it looks cute - and but its also a great chance to use your weight agianst you so, be careful when its used.

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9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

if you dont cross your arms, you leave a space between blocks where you are unprotected.

Quote:

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

this gives you the stability on the legs, the lower the stance, the better control of the weight.

[24fightingchickens]

24fightingchickens

Quote:

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi

-- if you get pushed back, or meet with something you cant push, you will want that leg behind you, giving you support and wont let you fall on your back.

Not me, no, I wouldn't. I do not view stances as being static. I do not plan on nor do I practice standing in a front stance perfectly still waiting for someone to come slam into me and hope that I am braced for the impact. My front stance is the product of my shifting my weight forward as I engage with a reverse punch, stepping punch, or some other technique. If I am in that posture, I am moving forward and catching my previously unsupported weight on my front foot just like a baseball batter catches his weight on his front leg as he moves his body forward and swings the bat at a baseball.

Following that posture I am moving either back out of range or catching the rear leg up with the rest of my body into yet another step forward, or perhaps a shift, or maybe some other direction - all depending. But it is a fluid snap shot in time, and I do not hold that posture nor ever expect it to support me if someone slams into me. Any high school wrestler would grab me behind the front knee and up-end me without any problem were I to expect the stance to perform for me in a static fashion like that.

In my experience, the study of static stances is beginner karate.

puts your whole wheight into the punch.not just cause it looks cute - and but its also a great chance to use your weight agianst you so, be careful when its used.

I disagree. I am able to throw a punch and lift my rear heel up and the only difference is that my posture is more flexible. The rear leg being straight or not does not change weight distribution between the feet. That is determined strictly by the relative position of the pelvis between the knees, imo.

A good way to ensure more weight is behind a punch is to time the punch to land on target just before your "landing gear" front leg touches down and redirects your moving-forward weight (projected momentum) from being supported by your fist smashing into their body.

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9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

if you dont cross your arms, you leave a space between blocks where you are unprotected.

That is what I learned when I was a beginner in karate. I now believe those techniques are not "blocks." They are over-stylized double-techniques of simultaneous block/counters and grab-attacks coupled together that modern Japanese instructors interpret in a very questionable fashion, imo.

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11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

this gives you the stability on the legs, the lower the stance, the better control of the weight.

I find this to not really be the case. Stability in stances is always bi-directional, and the stance is always vulnerable to upset from any other direction. The reason for this is that I only have two feet, and they are always in a straight line with each other. Bending my knees more deeply in a static stance is only an exercise in muscle endurance, nothing more.

In a fluid situation when I am stepping backward and forward, there are many points when I am not in a deep stance. Although during kata and basics practice we are encouraged to pick a height and maintain it, Funakoshi was adamant that more advanced karate was performed from higher stances and that deeper ones were more for show during training or the result of deep lunges. I agree with him.