Wasted or necessary movements

[neko_shojo]

Bunkai wrote:

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

You must know your surroundings before you can fight, looking is the first step in winning a fight. If you cannot see you opponent you cannot fight them very well. Also essential if you don't want to run into other students during a class...

Bunkai wrote:

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

this would be useful for specific pressure point ocntrol tactics, anything aimed at the brachial plexus origin is done with this movement, often used much like a ridge hand strike.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

this is boimechanically correct and lines up the bones in your wrist and forearm so as to prevent injury to these bones. If you practice it fully horizontal then it makes it much more practical in a fight, although in practice it can seem useless

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

This is more of a training movement I would argue, allowing the student to learn teh correct angle and ammount of force requires for a strike like this.

Bunkai wrote:

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Good for training, strengthens the thigh muscles, much like kiba-dashi. Also looks great in competition if you can keep a nice low stance, shows self dicipline.

[JusticeZero]

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

this is boimechanically correct and lines up the bones in your wrist and forearm so as to prevent injury to these bones. If you practice it fully horizontal then it makes it much more practical in a fight, although in practice it can seem useless.

Dunno, I think i've seen some things that indicated that that movement was anything but optimal for striking, recommending either a vertical or 45 degree angled fist instead. I suppose it does clear your centerline wider to rotate it that far, though, and there may be grappling reasons for the twist.

[carl]

Most things we learn in MA in the beginning go to extremes I think to show the proper mechanics of a technique. After a time, (after it's ingrained in our minds) we might not cross our arms as much when blocking, or get as low in a stance, or modify a punch to suit us better. Everything we learn in the beginning feels so foreign to us that we question it because it does. After a while, when things begin to click, the light bulb goes on, and we start saying , "Aha, that's why we do that" we begin to understand why we do this and why we do that.

In the end let me say this to you, when your teacher tells you to do this this way, or do that that way, question him/her. After a while you'll know why you do this this way, and that that way. If he/she tells you why, good. If he/she says some thing like, "Because I say so" you might be in trouble. But I will say that saying "I don't know" at time is OK because there are things we don't know and will never know.

I'll close by telling you a saying I heard a long time ago. If you begin to get lazy about your training, remember this; "If you practice sloppiness, you'll master sloppiness."

Carl

[ramymensa]

well I wouldn't call them useless. Many styles have got some moves people think are just for the 'show". In many cases there's more to it.

I think we should look more attentive and as a general rule of thumb try to see the "hidden" catch of them. Some details are hidden and after you find out about them you realise they are not useless at all.

[AnonymousOne]

I cant think of any wasted movements. I can however think of movements that I would never use in an actual fight BUT they make the art an art and contribute to neatness of technique, self discipline, good physical exercises to do and much else

[ONE TROOF]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata...

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Just curious to see differen't views. Thanks.

Hey man what are you doing here kin' (it's me MV). Your going to get some good responses here too. You know my take, but let me detail some of it for the unknowing.

One thing I would like to add about Shuto with the bent thumb-- it's structurally weak. Forget the broken thumb thing, it won't happen unless your thumb is away from your hand. Keep it close in. Also what you might want to ask is "what part of the hand or arm makes contact with the target". I'd like to hear everyone's responses to that.

Straight back leg in zenkutsu? First off if you use a long and wide zenkutsu for real fighting you're sunk. How hard are you gonna punch bone-on-bone? You should never lock your back leg. That's a schoolboy karate change for leg conditioning and has nothing to do with your gyakuzuki or whatever strike. Mobility and stance transition is much more imporatnt than telgraphed, point sparring reverse punches. Bend your knees, sit on your punches, that's what a real pugilist or striker understands as efficient and effective.

If you are caught in a double-leg takedown your only avenue of escape may be to straighten that back leg and push down on the back of the head/neck/shoulder area. Otherwise, understand the dynamics of fighting and that any straightening of the legs leads to immobility and weak strikes.

Good post, again.

[JimmyNewton]

even in katas when chambeering both hands to hips.

it is not simply "preparing for the next strike", its usually some type if hand or wrist trap, bringing them in, followed by a devastating blow

[makiwaraman]

There are no wasted moves in kata. For example try to headbutt someone as they bring their closed fist up to their shoulder ouch you headbutt an elbow. So that could be the block then the geden berai becomes a strike. I was told that where the knifehand strike starts is telling you where the target is.

regards makiwaraman

[1st KYU]

none of those things are wasted, they are all very important. you just have to unserstand what they actually do, i really dont have the time to explain them all but if your in a good dojo you will understand in time.

and another thing, a move in a kata doesn't just have one application there is a huge range of possibillities.

like mikiwaraman said there is no wasted movement in kata, they are all very deep and hold the roots of the style.

[1st KYU]

none of those things are wasted, they are all very important. you just have to unserstand what they actually do, i really dont have the time to explain them all but if your in a good dojo you will understand in time.

and another thing, a move in a kata doesn't just have one application there is a huge range of possibillities.

like mikiwaraman said there is no wasted movement in kata, they are all very deep and hold the roots of the style.