Wasted or necessary movements

[Bunkai]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata...

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

Just curious to see differen't views. Thanks.

[Shorin Ryuu]

For just about all the things you mentioned, they may or may not be wasted moves. This depends on whether or not you understand why you do them or if you will at some point in the future or not. There are some things you mentioned that I don't do (long and low zenkutsu or horizontal punch) except only in very rare instances. I don't punch horizontally unless I feel it is less of a punch and more of an actual grappling manuever. As a general rule, I don't get in really low front stances either. Most of the other things I either do or can see the possibility of some meaning behind them.

[ninjanurse]

Everything your sensei teaches you is important and nothing is wasted if done properly. There is a reason for all things. Even if you don't understand now it will become clear to you eventually.

[Sauzin]

Hi everyone, I'm new here.

In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata...

Oh dear god

This has to be one of the most in depth and encompassing group of questions I have ever seen asked on a board. Normally in class a student will come up with one good question like these a month. Anyway I will give a shot at answering them, and I guess we'll see if there is a word limit to these posts.

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai).

In our style we don't do this. The arms cross but stay low. There is no wasted motion. In Go-ju we did bring it up. Not to the shoulder but to what we called a "cross chamber". Basically we brought it out about 10" in front of the shoulder. This wasn't a wasted motion either, and brought different applications to the movement. You can grab and throw, you can block higher punches, and you cover more distance this way. But it is slower and bringing the blocking hand that far away from its intended target is risky business with a low block because the hand that's left down there has a tougher time parrying in its position then in other blocks with similar crossing techniques. Different styles, different benefits.

2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next.

Absolutely essential and not a wasted motion. The body follows the head. You want your body to move a direction, point your head there first and it will go. Move your body first and you will be fighting yourself the whole way. Natural instincts prevent us from being comfortable with moving in a direction we aren't looking. We bind up and it's harder to flow. Turning your head subconsciously shifts your balance and readies your body to move. Absolutely essential.

3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi.

Essential for redirecting force down the leg. Straightening the leg makes a huge difference with how much force it takes to push you backwards. Coincidently according to a man by the name of Isaac Newton every time you hit something you get pushed backwards. This is why it is very important to be able to instantly direct the force to the ground. It's like breaking boards. If the guy holding the boards has his arms bent then good luck breaking them. But if his arms are straight and the bones are aligned then the force instantly gets redirected and the board breaks.

4. open hand with thumb bent in.

No body likes a broken thumb. If the thumb isn't supported properly and bent then it can get caught and break. Also you can do some pretty impressive strikes with that thumb knuckle when it's reinforced against your palm.

5. open hand with fingers straight and together.

The fingers are stronger when they are together. Grab someone's hand and try bending their fingers back when they have them together. All they have to do is make a fist and they can stop you every time. Now with their fingers apart it's a very different story. That is what we call a open target and in the martial arts world we like to minimize those.

6. lift back heel slightly when punching.

Unless we're in a reverse cat or a crab stance we don't do that. It makes it harder to redirect the force down the back leg. What we do practice however is waiting till the last moment to fully straighten the back leg. This adds that little extra bit of "umph" and makes sure the whole body is behind the punch.

7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching.

This is a very long topic and to make a long story short I believe in practicing this, though its application may vary and may not include a full turn depending on who you talk to. Do a search on this topic though there's been some good discussion here.

8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes.

Not entirely sure what you are referring to. Certainly not every open hand strike we do has the guard hand with the palm to the ceiling. In fact we really don't do that technique, but the position of our palm usually indicates either a grab or a prepatory position to the next open hand strike.

9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks.

Hugely important. A signature of many Okinawan karate styles and something missing out of so many styles that have evolved from them. Not only does this allow the non blocking hand the chance to parry before the actual "block" is performed but it allows the non blocking hand to guide the blocking hand into position by feel alone. Like a rail road track guiding a train the non-blocking hand positions itself so as to direct the blocking hand to it's target, this creates a "crossing" position during the strike. This is what I call touch tactics where you maintain contact and feel out the position of your targets. There, of course, is a lot more to this such as what it does when you apply the block as a throw or how it teaches active use of the hand already in front as a transitionary tool to moving the other hand forward. I could literally go on for pages about this alone but needless to say it's not a wasted motion. In fact it's one of the most key elements in Okinawan blocks.

10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head.

This is arguably a wasted motion in application however it teaches students correct angle and direction for the strike. If you practice like that for a while you will learn to shoot a knife hand strike from any position because you will know what the proper alignment and angle will feel like.

11. long and low zenkutsu dachi.

I have already given my opinion on this in other topics but to sum it up I believe in deep stances in certain circumstances when applied to grappling. But every stance can't be this way. You need to be able to fight and move in more narrow or shallow stances and then be able to quickly assume a deep stance when the need for a larger base and lower center of gravity presnets itself. This is why Goju has Sanchin dachi as well as it's front stance and well as it's squat stance.

Whew, well that's it. Hope this helps. Sorry for the long read.

[Bunkai]

Everything your sensei teaches you is important and nothing is wasted if done properly. There is a reason for all things. Even if you don't understand now it will become clear to you eventually.

Yes,I understand this. I'm just curious of why you do them and if you think they have combat applications. Thanks for the replies.

[June1]

Impressive post, Sauzin!!

To keep it short and sweet, I think everything is useful. One may think a certain technique is just a waste, but you really never know when you may need to use it. Chances are, you never will (if you're lucky), but you never will know for sure.

[ninjanurse]

They are just the proper ways to execute techniques and if you have poor techniques they will not be effective in combat. Every little detail increases muscle efficiency, torque, balance, alignment, posture, & power. This is not to say that you would do a down block in a long front stance during combat but you will block with efficiency, balance, and power if you have practiced it as taught with the proper mechanics.

[Goju_boi]

everything is there for a reason

[Shorin Ryuu]

Correct. Everything IS there for a reason. Sadly, not everyone bothers to even look or think about the reason (some instructors included).

[Traditional-Fist]

Correct. Everything IS there for a reason. Sadly, not everyone bothers to even look or think about the reason (some instructors included).

Amen!