greek influence on karate

[Dark Shogun]

Grretings lads and lasses, lets talk some more karate history (I like history).

From what I gather karate came largely from chinese arts which came from indian arts which came from greek arts. I believe that this is a general line of decent but there is obviously some cross polination of styles from time to time.

I'm really looking from more information on how greek MA were sent to india. Who sen them? The army, yes but who? Were greek MA activly taught in india? Who in india learned them and how did they affect indian MA? Did yoga come from the greeks or was it created by the indians? etc.

Some web sites wound be helpful. Thanks everyone.

[AnonymousOne]

Grretings lads and lasses, lets talk some more karate history (I like history).

From what I gather karate came largely from chinese arts which came from indian arts which came from greek arts. I believe that this is a general line of decent but there is obviously some cross polination of styles from time to time.

I'm really looking from more information on how greek MA were sent to india. Who sen them? The army, yes but who? Were greek MA activly taught in india? Who in india learned them and how did they affect indian MA? Did yoga come from the greeks or was it created by the indians? etc.

Some web sites wound be helpful. Thanks everyone.

The Greeks, Romans, Assyrians and many other ancient cultures were great seafarers and traders. It is thought that the Greeks and others travelled to southern india and taught techniques that came out of gladiator systems. But I believe MA is much older than that.

It is also thought that the Romans travelled to China and set up stations there to protect trade routes which may have contributed to fighting systems reaching the Chinese. But the hardcore evidence of this is somewhat scant.

Of course Alexandra the Great went into northern India. There is egyptian, philistine and assyrian pottery with pictures of people in MA stances and even boxing positions

Karate was of course developed in Okinawa from native fighting systems and chinese systems.

Where ever man is/was fighting systems came about in varying levels of complexity. Even in my own country of New Zealand, the ancient Maori developed their own MA and weapon systems, albeit having no contact with the outside world for over 1,000 years.

[Skeptic 2004]

Anonymous One:

Not to take us off topic too much, but I just recently watched a movie called "Whale Rider", a fictional account about the cultural revival of the Maori in New Zealand. I was wondering if you were familiar with their armed combat system involving the taiaha. A couple of the characters in the movie demonstrated what looked like a "kobudo" kata with the taiaha, and it looked very interesting. Also, do you know if it might be related to the Hawai'ian combat system called lua?

[AnonymousOne]

Anonymous One:

Not to take us off topic too much, but I just recently watched a movie called "Whale Rider", a fictional account about the cultural revival of the Maori in New Zealand. I was wondering if you were familiar with their armed combat system involving the taiaha. A couple of the characters in the movie demonstrated what looked like a "kobudo" kata with the taiaha, and it looked very interesting. Also, do you know if it might be related to the Hawai'ian combat system called lua?

It is not known where the Maoris actually came from, certainly somewhere in the pacific, so how it relates to the Hawaiians I dont know.

The Taiaha is indeed a lethal weapon made of native new zealand hardwood. One blow would certainly kill you if received from the hands of an expert. The maoris are fantastic warriors thats for sure and that spirit still lives on in their culture

The maoris using the taiaha alone were often successful in defeating their english oppressors during the maori wars.

Maori culture has had a great revival in the last 30 years and ancient arts such as the Taiaha have also received great interest and imputus.

To watch a master of the Taiaha is very impressive. They display powerful movements

http://www.tu.co.nz/taiaha.htm

http://whakaahua.maori.org.nz/weapons1.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/jfjkd/FANZ.html

[aefibird]

Those links are interesting - thanks!

[Ted T.]

Jake the Mus, the Maori 'bad guy' from Once were Warriors and the sequal, something about the broken hearted?? is still my favorite roll model for the quintessential ma question - "What wuold you do if faced with this guy?"

[AnonymousOne]

Jake the Mus, the Maori 'bad guy' from Once were Warriors and the sequal, something about the broken hearted?? is still my favorite roll model for the quintessential ma question - "What wuold you do if faced with this guy?"

Jake the Mus may be a fictional charactor but I have met, known and hung out with many guys just like him. In fact I can think on 3 just like him in the street where I grew up. That movie was filmed 2 miles away from where my parents live and where I grew up in a suburb called Otara.

The warrior spirit lives on in many Maori and when mixed with alcohol has disastrous effects. However I have found that when they get over age 30 or so, they tend to calm down and live differently.

It can be quite frightening for people that are not used to people like that, but I grew up with them and its kinda normal for me. In the end they have self image problems and express their frustrations in life through crime and violence.

[mattyj]

Jake the Mus, the Maori 'bad guy' from Once were Warriors and the sequal, something about the broken hearted?? is still my favorite roll model for the quintessential ma question - "What wuold you do if faced with this guy?"

Jake the Mus may be a fictional charactor but I have met, known and hung out with many guys just like him. In fact I can think on 3 just like him in the street where I grew up. That movie was filmed 2 miles away from where my parents live and where I grew up in a suburb called Otara.

The warrior spirit lives on in many Maori and when mixed with alcohol has disastrous effects. However I have found that when they get over age 30 or so, they tend to calm down and live differently.

It can be quite frightening for people that are not used to people like that, but I grew up with them and its kinda normal for me. In the end they have self image problems and express their frustrations in life through crime and violence.

someone else from nz!

yea the maori people have somewhat of a 'warrior' culture.. unfortunately as you said this comes out in bad ways all too often with crime etc... did you see that thing on 60 minutes (i think) on the 'anger' culture of the maori anonymous? interesting... just two weeks ago a freind of mine was walking through albert park at night (stupid thing to do... but still this is no excuse) and said 'hows your night?' to a group of around 12 maori people, they didnt say anything, and as he moved on, they followed him, caught up, starting kicking him in the face etc, he woke up in a&e with a few of his mates that were there and saw 2 of the people that had attacked him that were also in a&e (his mates fought back), and has permanent damage to his vision in one eye (for a week they thought hed need a titanium plate somewhere around his eye socket). Senseless? I think so... but anyone trying to adress such problems is labelled 'racist' here in nz...

[Shorin Ryuu]

I haven't looked at the history of everything, but I think Chinese and Indian civilizations flourished before the Greeks did. They never really even made it into India in terms of military conquest either. Sure, there was some trade back and forth, but for a lot of the time, the higher technology and culture was on the Eastern side. To be totally honest, I think the influences between Greek systems and things like, say, karate are virtually non-existent.

[AnonymousOne]

Anonymous One:

Not to take us off topic too much, but I just recently watched a movie called "Whale Rider", a fictional account about the cultural revival of the Maori in New Zealand. I was wondering if you were familiar with their armed combat system involving the taiaha. A couple of the characters in the movie demonstrated what looked like a "kobudo" kata with the taiaha, and it looked very interesting. Also, do you know if it might be related to the Hawai'ian combat system called lua?

Skeptic 2004 I made some inquiries through a friend of mine who is a Maori Elder (Kaumatua) and he told me there are several Taiaha Schools here in New Zealand that openly teach its techniques and also teach the Maori empty handed martial art of Mau.

If you want to learn a devastating martial art that is quite unique in the world then I would suggest coming down here and learning the Taiaha. The Maori Warrior spirit is something to behold. They were fierce warriors and also had an incredible reputation during world war 1 and 2 for bravery and fighting skills.

The Taiaha is an ancient Maori weapon used by the Maori warriors of old in the heat of battle...

 

The taiaha is a two handed fighting weapon that can be employed in a number of offensive and defensive fighting forms.

 

Along with the Haka, it has become another highly visible symbol of the warrior traditions of the Maori. Today, the taiaha is mostly seen in the Maori ceremonial challenge called the wero or taki.

 

The Teachings of Taiaha

 

Traditionally the taiaha was part of the arsenal of the Maori warrior. It came under the teachings of Tu, the Maori God of War. Young children were trained from an early age using games and exercises to develop the necessary fitness, dexterity and agility to handle the weapon. Animal and bird movements such as the Pukeko and Fantail were modelled and incorporated into mastering the taiaha.

 

Selected students then entered into schools of weaponry and war where various masters taught them. After graduation from the schools, students then gained full honours on the battlefield where their skills were tested in deadly earnest.

 

Within many Maori oral histories, there are tales of duels to the death between taiaha champions where each one pitted skill and strength against each other.

 

There have been tales where a single Maori warrior has defended himself against an attacking force by manoeuvring himself so that he used his superior weaponry skills to defeat groups of warriors.

 

At the turn of the 19th century, a Dr D.A. Bathgate wrote of a duel fought at the New Zealand Parliament between an old Maori warrior, a giant reputed to be 80 years old, and a regimental sergeant-major of noted sword skills.

 

 

 

During World War 2, a 28 Maori Battalion soldier armed with a taiaha defeated a bayonet instructor from the Scots Guards during a public demonstration at Maadi Camp, Egypt in 1943.

 

The NZ Army has incorporated the taiaha into its physical training and parade ceremonies. All military dignitaries receive a Maori ceremonial challenge.

 

After nearly 120 years of British based insignia, the NZ Army has now incorporated the taiaha into its official crest.

Source: http://www.tu.co.nz/taiaha.htm