What it means to be a beginner, etc.

[JaseP]

I agree, the way I was taught, holders of any dan grade should have an excellent prowess in their chosen style.

TKD is not the only style that sometimes just views their dan grade as an "end of basic training".

...

Holding a black belt isn't a case of just "knowing the moves", you should also have a good amount of experience, physical strength, technical ability and confidence in combat.

I think we just have a differing opinion of what it means to no longer be a beginner.

What you are describing is to me having basic competancy...

Having a good amount of experience, physical strength, technical ability, and combat confidence IS the end of being a beginner...

[mikaveli]

I agree, the way I was taught, holders of any dan grade should have an excellent prowess in their chosen style.

TKD is not the only style that sometimes just views their dan grade as an "end of basic training".

...

Holding a black belt isn't a case of just "knowing the moves", you should also have a good amount of experience, physical strength, technical ability and confidence in combat.

I think we just have a differing opinion of what it means to no longer be a beginner.

What you are describing is to me having basic competancy...

Having a good amount of experience, physical strength, technical ability, and combat confidence IS the end of being a beginner...

True, but if if can draw from an analogy to explain myself better:

Provisional Car Licence Holder - Beginner

Full Licence Holder - Coloured Belts

Race Licence Holder - Black Belts

Champion Racer - Masters

Most circa 2 year black belt holders seem to be what i'd class as a 'Full Licence Holder' wheras, i think they should be a cut above. There should be a good distinction between a coloured belt and a dan grade. From my experience, this isn't the case in most clubs now.

Training part time as we do in the west, I don't see how anyone training less than 20 hours a week should achieve their dan grade in less than than 5 years!

[JaseP]

Most circa 2 year black belt holders seem to be what i'd class as a 'Full Licence Holder' wheras, i think they should be a cut above. There should be a good distinction between a coloured belt and a dan grade. From my experience, this isn't the case in most clubs now.

Training part time as we do in the west, I don't see how anyone training less than 20 hours a week should achieve their dan grade in less than than 5 years!

I totally disagree...

You're talking to a 2 year Black Belt holder...

I started my training in January of 1982,... and made 1st Dan in June of 1984...

2nd in June or July of 1986,...

I assure you I every bit earned that rank... And nobody who knew me at that time, let alone now, would say different. One of my old friends still talks about the way I trained back then to his students...

Everyone learns at a different pace. Some can learn quicker if given the chance. Others struggle with the basics after 8-10 years.

I don't disagree having time limits, because they work for the majority of people and don't really hurt the people who can learn faster (humbles them). I'm also the first to say that there are siome things that can only be taught with time. But none of those things are learned at 1st Dan. But you really can't generalize about the time limits,...

People who refer to "kiddie black belts," people who refer to rapid promotions, etc., are really talking about something else,... a decline of quality in martial arts students (in general). Then you go to tournaments, and you see these kids today, some of whom are performing forms or have skill sets that we would have killed for in the day,... and it blows the theory entirely... Are they better then we were back then??? I doubt it. I think they just have more oppurtunity to show off what they know... But it doesn't lessen one bit that their skill and knowledge levels have reached where they should be.

The problem is that the promotion cycle that was once the exception, has become the rule for many places.

I also don't buy the race car driver analogy...

Being a Master is not about being better than everyone else,... it's nice to be, but it isn't required,... if it was there wouldn't be any 80 year old masters,... it's about knowing more. Some people take 10 years to complete a bachelor's degree. They drop out and come back, or just pursue it at a slow pace. Some can do it in 3 years. They don't take Summers off and take full course loads year round. At the end of the day, the degree is the degree...

[Aodhan]

Training part time as we do in the west, I don't see how anyone training less than 20 hours a week should achieve their dan grade in less than than 5 years!

You're kidding, right? That's about 5200 hours. A college degree (120 credit hours, x 5 since you do about 4 hours outside of class for every hour in class) takes 4 years and is about 600 hours, and is generally considered to have mastered the basic skills necessary to perform their job and/or go to advanced degrees.

600 hours over 2 years is a little under 6 hours per week. If you are spending 6 hours in class and 2-3 outside of class practicing, that is enough (imho) to be able to achieve a 1st dan ranking.

Also, one of the things that I think has affected the time it takes to get a 1st dan ranking is teaching abilities. Experience and finding out what works and what doesn't, recognition of different teaching and learning styles (Such as linear vs. abstract), etc. has made better, more effective teachers. Knowing how to teach concepts such as proprioception and kinesthetics will also shorten the learning time.

I personally can learn an 81 move form in about 2-3 hours. Do I have it perfected? Not by a long shot, but I can go through the whole form and remember what move comes next. Others in my class don't have a handle on it after 10-12 hours. Some people learn faster, some people learn slower.

5200 hours I would expect to be around the 3rd dan ranking, actually.

Aodhan

[Sam]

I think we're getting a bit hung up on the difference in training.

Like aodhan said it should be around full time (20+ hours) training for 5 years, which would be around 5200 hours. Now, what we have to consider (imho) when deciding if this is a reasonable amount of time (compared to modern 2 - 3 years at 6 hours a week).

In the 20+hr, 5yr course you would not just learn the moves and become adept in them, you would spend a large proportion of that time doing physical training and conditioning on a level beyond what one would learn / endure in modern training at 6 hours a week.

I believe this is the major difference, all well and good learning forms and moves and their applications, but also at 20hours a week you have time to greatly improve your physical ability with those moves.

Any way thats just my two bits, personally it took me 3 and a Half years at around 10 hours training a week with home training thrown in at around another 5 hours (at least now it is, cant remember what i started at), this is not including any exercise i do other than conditioning.

[Sam]

Thanks Mikaveli,

I agree about the Dan grade and degree but its really what you expect from a black belt that matters in teh time it takes. IF you expect them to have an understanding of what the moves do and how they work and be able to do them all to a high level then yes 2 or 3 years is reasonabe.

However if you expecft a black belt / instructor to be in excellent physical condition and be conditioned as well, also highly adept in the moves themselves demonstrating the ability to do them all to an exceptional level then yes 5 years at 20hrs is adequate.

I guess all our differences in opinions stem from what we see black belt as :

(a) - a point where you pull of the moves adeptly. (b)- a point where you are in mastery of the moves.

(a) would suggest blaCk belt is only the start of your journey in the art physically and spiritually.

(b) would suggest that black belt suggests mastery of the physical side and furhter in crease in Dan grades represents a more spiritual understanding / growth associated with Martial Arts....

These two as we all know are very differing stand points in MA and neither is necessariliy better than teh other, so long as you know which one you are!

[EternalRage]

I believe a Black Belt should take about 5-7 years. I took about 5.5 years to test for mine in Soo Bahk Do (havent' found out the results yet - probably take another month or two maybe). Since the US Soo Bahk Do Federation has a minimum of approximately 4.5 years for Cho Dan, most people on average take about 5-6 years.

I think time limits ensure a certain threshold of physical proficiency - muscle memory rather than mental memory. We're all intelligent people (from what I can gather ), we could probably memorize a typical Korean form in about 20 minutes. It is the training of the muscle memory that takes a long time - it is said that it takes 30 days to develop a habit or 10,000 repetitions of a technique to get it into muscle memory. Given everything that is necessary for a black belt, to get every little aspect of hyung, kicking, basics, etc at that threshold takes some time.

Someone mentioned that college only requires 600 hours of study or so to be deemed as proficient in the student's chosen field. However, I believe it is easier to learn things with the mind than the body (generally). And secondly - statistically - most people only remember/use 20% of what they learned in college. Martial arts training depends on strong foundations, and wouldn't you want to keep it till you die anyways? Why train only enough so that you will know 20% of it? I'd say its more apt so compare the training for black belt to training that is also life or death - say that of a medical doctor. Medical doctors spend 2 years in study, 2 years in clinical rotations, and another 2-8 years in some specialty training, often working between 60-80 hour weeks throughout all that time.

Also, time frame for a Cho Dan Black Belt (in recent times) depends on the requirements of your school, your teachers, your organizations. WTF TKD requirements tend to be less and the threshold of proficiency lower - hence you see 2 year black belts. US Soo Bahk Do has the set time limit as an organization. I've heard of ITF TKD instructors who are like drill sargents and don't let you get your black belt till you have been beaten for a good five years.

[Aodhan]

Like aodhan said it should be around full time (20+ hours) training for 5 years, which would be around 5200 hours. Now, what we have to consider (imho) when deciding if this is a reasonable amount of time (compared to modern 2 - 3 years at 6 hours a week).

Actually, I disputed the 5200 hours.

Aodhan

[Aodhan]

Someone mentioned that college only requires 600 hours of study or so to be deemed as proficient in the student's chosen field. However, I believe it is easier to learn things with the mind than the body (generally). And secondly - statistically - most people only remember/use 20% of what they learned in college. Martial arts training depends on strong foundations, and wouldn't you want to keep it till you die anyways? Why train only enough so that you will know 20% of it? I'd say its more apt so compare the training for black belt to training that is also life or death - say that of a medical doctor. Medical doctors spend 2 years in study, 2 years in clinical rotations, and another 2-8 years in some specialty training, often working between 60-80 hour weeks throughout all that time.

I'll agree that most only use 20% of what they learn in college, and that they don't remember much of that. However, it's the difference between mental learning and physical learning.

When you learn something mentally, your brain actually wires neurons together in specific patterns to "imprint" the memory. If you use that memory constantly, it stays "wired" in the brain. If you don't use it, it eventually disappears. I scored excellently in math on my SAT and ACT's, but I doubt I could pass college trig if I were to take it now.

Muscle memory is similar in that it is pattern memory, but muscle memory does not really fade like mental memories do. You may lose the fine motor skills, but the gross motor movements will still be there.

And, if you want to continue the college analogy further, how much of your time is actually spent on learning your major? Most schools only require half of your time be spent in major courses, the rest is on general ed and electives. When you train in a martial art, 90% of your time is spent in your "major" (so to speak). This is going to greatly reinforce the training, especially since there is so much repetition even from form to form.

And as far as life/death? You can get a paramedic certification in about 6 months, and in an emergency I'd trust a paramedic over any doctor (Other than ER) in a street situation any day. (Can you tell I was an ER medic in the Air Force? )

Aodhan

[Sam]

As i will mention in other posts - proof by anaology is not really any proof when taken too far.

Didnt mean to put words in your mouth Aodhan!