Kata question(Bunkai related)

[Samurai Shotokan]

Thanks agian for the replies. I think one thing kata also teaches you by trying to perfect the movement and stances is I dont remember the exact term but it translates into "the mind and fist are one" like if your mind doesnt work neither will your body and thats where kata comes in

[Skeptic 2004]

To address the matter of perfection, I would caution one to think critically about what it is that they are trying to perfect. Perfecting that XMA-ish jump spinning flying double dragon hook kick might be fun but lacks function. Think critically about your movement and its application first; perfect second.

I thought I'd just pile more info on concerning the question of variation between karate styles, though I'm probably repeating something someone else has already said at some point.

Variations between karate styles is normally due to what particular emphasis that style favors. Shorin Ryu, for example, favors close-in fighting, so Shorin versions of kata have short, natural stances, limbs close to the body, several jamming/stuffing/distraction techniques, and quite a bit of grappling.

For the same reason that variation between styles is because of a particular stylistic emphasis, it is also because instructors may have a personal preference. For example, my instructor teaches and performs kata using full osae even though his teacher taught and practiced the half osae. My instructor prefers the full osae because it's easier to understand and practice the timing. Another great example is that my instructor's instructor made a personal version of Useishi for him. My instructor didn't like the knife-hand strikes and felt more comfortable using his closed fists; his instructor modified Useishi just for him accordingly. My instructor teaches both the original version and his personalized version.

Variations may also occur because of physical abilities. There's a guy in our class who has problems with his shoulder, so our instructor made personal modifications of certain kata to accomodate him. There's another guy who blew out his knee in his younger years (all the guys I train with are in their 50's at least...) so he does certain portions of kata differently than the rest of us.

Finally, variations occur because as Uechi Kid astutely pointed out earlier, no two people do kata the same way.

In some cases, these variations completely change the range of applications or the applications themselves. In other cases the applications or range of applications may be the same as the original but executed slightly differently.

[Kieran-Lilith]

Well, my sensei told us his reasons, and they make a lot of sense. When these people were making their katas up, they had to be practiced exactly the same, perfectly, every single time. If they weren't, you would lose the techniques hidden in the kata. For example, we were looking at Pinan Shodan kata on Thurs. We were doing what appeared to be lower level lock, gedan-barai. It could actually be turned into arm bars, throws, of course the block, and many other things. All that was hidden in just the one move. If someone changed it, then they could lose different moves.

On some kata nights Sensei can be very, very strict. We have to do the kata, no little add ins of our own. As he puts it, wiping our noses is not part of his kata. How does wiping our noses teach us to defend ourselves?

[Samurai Shotokan]

Skeptic 2004

I wasnt refering to XMA style katas just the traditional katas like Heians and Bassai-Dai ect. Sorry to sound stupid but whats osae ? I dont reconize that word sorry can you clarify it for me?

[Skeptic 2004]

First, you're not stupid. Osae is something I had never heard of until about 6 months ago. And, it sounds like few people I've managed to talk to have ever heard about it either.

Second, I'm still wrestling with the concept of osae myself. Basically, "osae" means "press" and it refers to a constant forward projection of your hara toward your opponent.

Here's a discussion I hosted a while ago about it:

http://www.karateforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=19034&highlight=osae

Bear in mind I'm still trying to clarify this idea myself, but I think I'm just beginning to grasp it. My instructor says it's beginning to slowly manifest itself in my kata.

[Samurai Shotokan]

thanks for the link.Yeah the definition is alittle vague but it probably makes more sense if an instuctor shows it to me or demostrats it

[Venrix]

Same reason in 2nd grade you learn to make your letters perfect even though you dont use perfect handwritting now.

By working things perfect you are less likely to mess up in real life because you set the bar higher in training.

For me, this is the perfect response.

-V-

[Samurai Shotokan]

umm i have something to add.A remember seeing Funakoshi do a kata and his stance is fairly high by todays standard(for Shotokan anyway) but why are the stances lower today than the orginal?I dont have anything agianst high stances.I really dont enjoy holding a low kiba dachi(i havent really got the knees for it)So why are katas lower today then they were when the style was created?

[Sauzin]

A lot of it has to do with the Japanese influence. From what I was told they approached it from a very scientific standpoint. The deeper the stance the more rooted it is and the more force it can take. Put this with the Japanese tendency to be very hard, clean, simplistic, and snappy and the deeper stances simply fit. Then came the idea that these stances were more for training then anything else and you can see where the divergence in practice and practicality may have occurred.

Now don't get me wrong, I find deep stances extremely practical in the right circumstances. But deep stances in almost every move in every kata? No that's not how it was originally done and that's not how most Okinawan arts do it today (just ask some of the guys here who practice Shorin-ryu, the style Shotokan evolved from).

[swdw]

The deeper stances are also because of the influence of kendo on Japanese society. The same thing happened when Yamaguchi took Goju to Japan.

Funakoshi was an Okinawan and learned Shuri-te, the predecessor to Shorin-Ryu. His stances are higher because that's the way he was taught in Okinawa. THis had nothing to do with age.

As far as lower stances being more "scientific", if you can find some research proving this, I'd be interested in reading it.

For a good insight into the principles behind kata (in any style), why moving correctly when performing kata is important and understanding the principles behind interpereting kata, get Toguchi's book "Okinawan Goju Ryu II" . THe chapters on kata and kaisai are short but very revealing

Edited May 12, 2005 by swdw