New Belt System????

[Slydermv]

Define outrageous fees...

I figured with belt testing fees and yearly fees, if I go to 4 classes a week it costs $5.76 Canadian a class

There's a thread about fees in general, and i noticed I was on the high end... but that dosen't seem outrageous to me...

[mattyj]

nobody said anything about pink or christmas colored belts.

yea but dont u think camo is getting there?

[Aodhan]

Out of curiousity - what is your guys definition of McDojo? To me McDojo doesn't neccessarily mean that what they are teaching at the school (the system) is bad.

McDojo to me means it's like a McDonalds, you walk in, put your money down and place your order. Very soon you walk out with your order. If you can do that with a MA school, it's a McDojo.

As an example, I was floor judge at a testing at an old school (Out of fairness I won't say what system I was in at the time). Two students could not complete their form. I'm not talking about them forgetting, or freezing, they simply didn't know the form. I had to walk them through the form move by move. They also could not do their board breaks. They passed.

If your graduation criteria is nothing more than you attended x number of classes, McDojo alert. If you have a guaranteed time to make BB, McDojo alert. If your school doesn't use forms unless you join a certain club, McDojo alert.

Basically, anything that says the BB is for sale rather than something to be earned, you're probably straying into the McDojo area.

Aodhan

[SaiFightsMS]

Some pruning of this topic did occur. Please remember to make all posts in a respectful manner. And that includes referring to a particular style or school in a derogatory manner.

[JaseP]

Until you find out that the guy with the pink belt is actually a 2 year red belt.... hehehe

A red belt should never turn pink,... belts aren't suppoed to be washed. If they appear tattered, it should be because of training, and not the spin and fluff cycle of the dryer...

That's what I meant... a red belt that turned pink with ware... hence it's not a McDojo school and he can hand you your rear....

I don't know where the washed comment came from... I made no comment about the washing of the belt.

Red belts NEVER turn pink through wear alone. They only get that way if they are washed... I have two red belts,... one from when I made Black Belt under my old instructor, and another from when I re-tested for Black again with my current instructor. They are both bright red. They are also both well over a decade old... (the DARKER of the two is actually over 20 years old)...

There haven't been red belts made that fade through wear for over 25 years.

[EternalRage]

Some pruning of this topic did occur. Please remember to make all posts in a respectful manner. And that includes referring to a particular style or school in a derogatory manner.

I noticed one of my posts was deleted. I'll fix it up and try to determine what exactly I wrote was inappropriate and remove it. Basically what I was saying was in response to this post:

So... the fat instructor with no skill and no testing fees is ------------

the instructor with testing fees and no skill is McDojo...

To objectivify this discussion, and to minimize the confusion over exactly what I meant by certain terms in previous posts, I shall use the terms "McDojo" and -------- in context to further explain. The following cases are not about any system, style, school or instructor specifically. They are just case studies for further explanation:

Case 1: An instructor with skill, who teaches well, but with high fees or any of the symptoms that Mr. Aodhan wrote in the post above (great post by the way Aod) then this instructor's school can only be labeled as "McDojo," which only means he is commercial, NOT that what he is teaching is invalid.

Case 2: An instructor with no skill or doesn't teach well, but with no fees or the opposite of what Aodhan posted can be labeled as -------- (since this term refers to a system or style or interpretation that is proven to be ineffective, hence the instructor is teaching things that don't work - potentially dangerous). But this school would not be labeled as "McDojo," since the instructor can be teaching with all his heart and not wanting any of the money.

Case 3: An instructor with no skill, doesn't teach well, and with high fees/what Aodhan posted is both ------- and "McDojo."

Schools can be McDojo and teach the best martial arts you can find. Schools can be ------- but not cost you a dime. I also want to say that what classifies a school as "McDojo" or --------- is highly flexible and sometimes can be subjective (ie isolated bad experiences, etc).

So tying this back into the thread's original topic, the introduction of a new color belt, even though belts are regarded as a business tool and also an organizational tool for teachers, it still comes down to the intentions behind its creation. If it is for money, then it is not appropriate to make it. If it is for further breakdown of the curriculum in an order to organize teaching better, then I'd say that's fine. Also even if an organization like the ATA makes such a new belt, regardless of their intentions of the belt, it comes down to school owners who set the different prices/contracts/etc. In which case you have various different uses of the cameo belt, some good, some bad.

As most issues in martial arts, it comes down to the school, the instructor - it depends.

[Slydermv]

Red belts NEVER turn pink through wear alone. They only get that way if they are washed... I have two red belts,... one from when I made Black Belt under my old instructor, and another from when I re-tested for Black again with my current instructor. They are both bright red. They are also both well over a decade old... (the DARKER of the two is actually over 20 years old)...

There haven't been red belts made that fade through wear for over 25 years.

"Thanks for the insight.... the point I was trying to make was that regardless of the colour of the belt, wheather it be pink, green, camo or leapord print... don't make the mistake of underestimating that person cause they may train harder then you... I'll try to make my posts clearer. Though I was unaware that red belts fade (I don't have one yet... hehe)... that was not the point I was trying to make.

So tying this back into the thread's original topic, the introduction of a new color belt, even though belts are regarded as a business tool and also an organizational tool for teachers, it still comes down to the intentions behind its creation. If it is for money, then it is not appropriate to make it. If it is for further breakdown of the curriculum in an order to organize teaching better, then I'd say that's fine. Also even if an organization like the ATA makes such a new belt, regardless of their intentions of the belt, it comes down to school owners who set the different prices/contracts/etc. In which case you have various different uses of the cameo belt, some good, some bad.

Point taken... I think I might be alright though.

That McDonalds explination was very helpful, and though I have a ten belt system in my school (no camo though... damn...) it is leg for what I want.

Slyder aka thread hijacker!

[Aodhan]

Point taken... I think I might be alright though.

That McDonalds explination was very helpful, and though I have a ten belt system in my school (no camo though... damn...) it is leg for what I want.

Slyder aka thread hijacker!

Then that's all that matters. People think that anything outside of "traditional" is commercial, crass and shouldn't be used. Belts are used to define steps along the process. If I came across a school that had incredible martial artists, and all their belts were shades of violet, who cares? They only give a reference to a point along a path, anyway.

Besides, TKD as such is 50 years old this year. It has older roots, but the current "systems" are only 50 years old, not a lot of time to have "traditions" rooted in stone.

Aodhan

[JaseP]

...

Besides, TKD as such is 50 years old this year. It has older roots, but the current "systems" are only 50 years old, not a lot of time to have "traditions" rooted in stone.

Aodhan

True,... but the color belt system is more on the order of 150 years old, borrowed from Judo...

To me it doesn't make sense to use belts that are outside of convention. You get problems in open tournaments, when people change styles (due to relocation, etc), or when people are trying to investigate the system to join.

It leads to confusion and doesn't change the fact that the more belts there are in a system, the more oppurtunity exists to charge additional money for tests... and hence be labeled a "McDojo." This is both real and perceived...

Keep in mind that most systems traditionally use a gup or kyu system for advancement in the color belts and they typically work their way backward from 10... If you have a different color belt for each of these ranks... fine. But if you not only have those ranks but add stripes to the belts to further create testing oppurtunities, the school is most definitely a McDojo,... even if they offer good instruction. Overt commericalism needs to be balanced by the teaching of the art... The best scenario is when the commerical aspects of the school are transparent to the instruction.

[Balrog]

My feelings are a little biased on this against ATA, so I don't intend to offend anyone. My experience w/ ATA is that while it is great with young kids, specifically their tiny tigers program, they are primarily in it for the $$$$$. Part of this is demonstrated in their ranking system where they seem to have tests every month and a dozen or so belts. You pay that many test fees and you will end up coughing up that much more money.

You've missed a few points. A normal testing cycle is 8 weeks; most schools will have 5-6 tests a year due to the tournament schedule and holidays. And most students will promote a full rank at a time. In our school, we slow the students down to 1/2 rank at a time at Purple Belt because the material becomes significantly harder at that time and they need the extra time in rank. However, it is still possible to promote a full rank at a time from Purple Belt on up; it's just a lot harder.

Almost all organizations have testing fees that you pay. Some don't, some are less than ATA's, some are equivalent, the rest are higher. ATA basically recommends a guideline for colored belt tests of $30 plus $5 times the rank of the chief instructor. As a 5th Degree Black Belt, the testing fees in my school are $55. Black Belt tests from Second Degree on up are set by ATA and are $100 times your current rank.

I appreciate your acknowledgement that you are biased against ATA, but it seems to me that your bias is unfounded. I'd like to ask what the basis is, if there is one other than testing fees. Perhaps I can fill in some blanks for you and give you a better understanding.