New Belt System????

[usatkdwtf]

belt meanings have nothing to do with the integrity of the school or the quality of instruction.

[mattyj]

well they arent the be all and end of all of the quality of instruction etc... but a club using pink and christmas coloured belts is more likely to be of a mcdojo nature...

[JaseP]

nobody said anything about pink or christmas colored belts.

there are many other ways to identify a mcdojo that are more definite than the belt structure.

Belt meanings just mean a well thought out curriculum.

there are many over generalized statements on this thread.

Belt meanings should always be there,... otherwise there was no rationale for choosing the color to represent the rank in the first place. So each color of a belt in a system should be representative of that level in some way, concrete or abstract. Traditionally, they represented seasons, and there were 4 colors... Other colors were added to ease the anxiety of the beginning students. The problem has come from systems that incorporate MANY colors,... especially when there are more than 10 (10 representing the traditional gup/kyu systems that were first developed, backwards from 10 to 1, then the Dan ranks from 1 to 10,... 10 being reserved for the single head-honcho Master [Grandmaster, Kwan Jang, whatever] of the system, or for dead 9th Dans).

Then came along systems which increased Dan rankings beyond 10, made relativley youthful people high level Dans to appease egos, and added all sorts of extra levels within the color belts, to appease the color belts (or their parents) fragile egos and make money.

So multiple belt colors (7+) aren't proof of a McDojo/McDojang,... but they are an indicator... as are the implementation of some other dubious marketing schemes (karate birthday parties, karate day care, one fee to make it to a certain level, Black Belt Clubs where the members aren't Black Belts, teams and programs where there are additionals fees paid, etc.). Students need to understand that a martial arts school or program is a business, and must be run that way, on the other hand, the teacher is teaching an art,... and so there needs to be some seperation between the business aspect and the art aspect... Adding all sorts of belt colors into the system smacks of business intruding into art... That is why I am against the practice.

[EternalRage]

nobody said anything about pink or christmas colored belts.

there are many other ways to identify a mcdojo that are more definite than the belt structure.

Belt meanings just mean a well thought out curriculum.

there are many over generalized statements on this thread.

First off Jasep, good post.

USATKDWTF, belts are not the only thing you look for in claiming mcdojo, however, it is one of the primary "red flag warnings" that should pop up. I believe belts should primarily be for the instructor so that he can split up the curriculum in a structured manner and then also keep track of who has received what knowledge. Too many use it for commercial purposes.

It's no longer safe to assume that a certain belt has a certain skill level associated with it. As Jasep pointed out, there are too many people using the belt system in order to get testing fees and set up expensive contracts based on the mytholgoy and "oh so coveted" belt.

5 or less colors with stripes for all the inbetween rankings is alright. 10 different colors is pushing it. And when you have colors that aren't in the "original Crayola markers" then red flags should start poppin up. So in answer to your question TKDguy, it is most likely your camo belt is in there for commercial purposes. And it shouldn't surprise you, because many schools are turning commercial to compete with other schools marketing techniques. My old Moo Duk Kwan TKD school underwent some strange changes over the last several years as well.

[Slydermv]

Until you find out that the guy with the pink belt is actually a 2 year red belt.... hehehe

A red belt should never turn pink,... belts aren't suppoed to be washed. If they appear tattered, it should be because of training, and not the spin and fluff cycle of the dryer...

That's what I meant... a red belt that turned pink with ware... hence it's not a McDojo school and he can hand you your rear....

I don't know where the washed comment came from... I made no comment about the washing of the belt.

EternalRage:

"5 or less colors with stripes for all the inbetween rankings is alright. 10 different colors is pushing it."

What's the difference between 5 belts with 5 stripes (ten rankings) and 10 different colour belts?

And belts are cool IMO... I have ten in my school... they are a good motivational technique... and though I do pay for testing, those prices along with my monthly fees end up being the same as prices at other schools in my area.

There's alot of talk of schools that charge money are sellouts. Well if your teachers career is teaching martial arts... he has to make some kind of profit...

so, do belt testing fees make a McDojo... no

do belts? no

But they are symptoms from what I've read on this board and others. With no martial arts experiance... how can you tell if you're in a McDojo?... you might still sweat, but you learn nothing of martial arts...

[EternalRage]

I don't know where the washed comment came from... I made no comment about the washing of the belt.

I think they thought you meant that the red belt turned pink because they washed their belt with their uniform and used a little too much detergent/bleach.

EternalRage:

"5 or less colors with stripes for all the inbetween rankings is alright. 10 different colors is pushing it."

What's the difference between 5 belts with 5 stripes (ten rankings) and 10 different colour belts?

The difference is that you're not changing the color of the belt too much. Its not really a new belt, its a stripe. It may seem moot to those of you who don't have to go through the color belt system anymore, but to a beginner, not getting a new color sometimes gets translated to not really getting promoted. Stripe is generally seen as no biggie by beginners.

And belts are cool IMO... I have ten in my school... they are a good motivational technique... and though I do pay for testing, those prices along with my monthly fees end up being the same as prices at other schools in my area.

There's alot of talk of schools that charge money are sellouts. Well if your teachers career is teaching martial arts... he has to make some kind of profit...

so, do belt testing fees make a McDojo... no

do belts? no

Having fees, contracts, belts, and all the other "symptoms" doesn't make it a mcdojo necessarily. Its the owner/instructor's intentions behind it -if they are trying to make money, then it is. Its how they are using these tools - for business or for organizing students/curriculum? The reason why so many people just yell Mcdojo when they see these symptoms is because nowadays a large majority of the schools that do these things ARE actually mcdojos. But of course, that isn't to say that every school that has them is a mcdojo, they may be one of the minority that do it for the right reasons.

But they are symptoms from what I've read on this board and others. With no martial arts experiance... how can you tell if you're in a McDojo?... you might still sweat, but you learn nothing of martial arts...

Well hopefully you will have a friend that knows the difference. If not, there are martial arts websites that are geared towards spreading the necessary information to avoid a mcdojo.

[usatkdwtf]

youd be suprised what you can learn from a mcdojo as far as business.

I use the mcdojo way to an extent because its just good business, however, I seriously slice away at the cost of the carges and I dont charge "what I should".

Mcdojos are the industry leader in business....its very easy to take the good and ignore the bad for the betterment of your school.

The camo belt in ATA was not made for "business reasons". ATA has 9 colored belts and 9 black belts.

Its part of the system and mcdojos are individual in manner. Its how you teach it.

I know a lot of Karate places that have 5 ranks but like 3 stripes at each rank. My old shotokan place did, and I got charged for every testing for my stripe. Thats like 15 different "ranks".

So, like I said...black belt clubs, testing fees, belt meanings and 9 belt colors does not mean mcdojo...in fact these things are industry standard. How many "Stripes" does your system have?

Its how you teach and where your heart is that classifies you as a mcdojo or not.

Just because my belt rack has a camo color in it, and I have a Black belt club t-shirt does not mean I went to a mcdojo. I personally would not assume that or state it, based on belt systems...or striping groups withn those systems, or on a black belt club or anything else. These all could be a good school being up to date and proactive in the MA industry.

It does not mean the school is mcdojo. These are business tools.

To be honest...Ive seen a lot of mcdojos with 5 belt colors and no testing fees. What they were learning there was from a overweight instructor, who had difficulties tieing his belt.

[Slydermv]

Having fees, contracts, belts, and all the other "symptoms" doesn't make it a mcdojo necessarily. Its the owner/instructor's intentions behind it -if they are trying to make money, then it is. Its how they are using these tools - for business or for organizing students/curriculum?

I don't know.... just because a person is making a profit from teaching, dosen't mean they run a McDojo. I mean... you have to be able to eat and put a roof over your head. Your job is your job. I don't work for free, would you?

Making a little extra cash can't be a bad thing. If poor instruction comes along with it... I can see your meaning.

I live in a smaller community (150,000) and our city hasn't been graced by a chain school, so maybe my understandings and fears are different then most peoples, but I would really hate for the peson browsing over these boards to see... "10 belts and testing fees are McDojo!!!1!!!" when they might skip out on a school with quality instruction.

I don't know... in my area.... the schools that charge about $80-$100/month are quality and the other that charge less are garbage...

But that what it usually comes down to when board debates are finished... it depends on the person, the area and what you're looking for.

And if I was skilled enough to run my own school... My belts would go like this:

white,

yellow w/ orange strip

green w/ brown strip

blue w/ purple strip

leopard print

black

[EternalRage]

Out of curiousity - what is your guys definition of McDojo? To me McDojo doesn't neccessarily mean that what they are teaching at the school (the system) is bad. In fact "McDojo" doesn't have anything to do with martial arts teaching at all. Its how the school is structured - mainly analyzing commercial aspects and organization of the school.

There is a term for bad teaching/material - which is a completely different topic. But the last time I posted this word (which is also the name of another forum) I got my post deleted and warned by Mr. Patrick. So I won't say it. But this and "McDojo" to me are two different things. So the fat instructor with no testing fees is not McDojo, but instead he is ---------.

[Slydermv]

I'm relatively new to internet boards, so McDojo is a new word for me.

I always assumed it meant a place where you pay a crap load of money and learn nothing. Which is worst then the other word you are talking about.... cause even though you learn nothing, you still at least got a couple dollars in your pocket.

I hope that my own dojang is a commercial martial arts school. I believe I pay reasonable testing fees, and have noticed an appreciable increase in skill level. I know what I do is not for "the street", as we are a olympic style school, and I enjoy it for the sport.

i also understand, that with common sence my skill can be applyed in a self defence manner if necessary, so -hopefully- I wouldn't get my teeth knock out if that were the case.

So... the fat instructor with no skill and no testing fees is ------------

the instructor with testing fees and no skill is McDojo...

My understanding at least...

As for the other forum... I check there on occasion as well, but I find constant flaming and sacarsam by some (not all) of the regular posters precludes any intellegent discusssion, especially when TKD comes into a post. I guess I'm at least not doing Ninjitsu... hehehhe