Karate sparring UN EFFECTIVE ON STREET

[Menjo]

ok i think i was misinterpeded.....what i meant is that i was only talking about attributes thus my argument wont work for any other argument most likely. so someone using an attribute effectivly i think is an opportunist which takes skill to do so, but not usually as much as the person they have the attribute over because that is the essence of the oportunist taking advantage right? An attribute maybe a result from practice but that could be martial arts its self....i think it is very possible to defeat an opponent in one blow, very much so but those reasons are ovious...your reply i think was talking about something(s) else becuase it creates new topics so thats why i cant give a straight answer....iam not saying if someone is able to carry out something because they can do it eaiser doesnt make it not a skill, it just takes less effort depending on the attribute, so attributes can i find highten skills but to use the attribute to do so you need the skill of what other basic skills are needed such as quick thinking and speed and intelligence....i think i made some sense of that anyway

[elbows_and_knees]

So the fact that one has the courage to face you in combat; and, has the skill to avoid and take everything you throw at him and has the power to send you to hospital,or worse, with one blow, is irrelevant because those "attributes do not make fighting skill"?

courage alone isn't enough. If you show me someone that's all courage and no skill, I can show you someone eager to get his butt kicked. Now, look what you said next - "...has the SKILL to avoid..." Now, we are talking about skill - use of the attributes. Like I said, the attributes alone don't necessarily mean anything, and you just proved that point.

I am not talking about the attributes of Martial Arts but MARTIAL ARTISTS. When you have a martial artist who has the COURAGE to face a bull; the skill and the speed to avoid its attacks; and the POWER to kill it with one's fists (one blow, in a few cases), then this martial artist CAN fight.

so am I... MA = martial artist in this instance, not martial art. And once again, a bull does not attack in the manner of a man. that's like dodging kicks in order to improve your ability to dodge punches. I'm sure cro cop and many of the other pro fighters today could kill a bull. I have no doubt that tyson could - but that is not what made him a great fighter.

[elbows_and_knees]

Don't attributes and skills come through practice? Isn't finishing a fight with one blow a skill? Isn't effectively avoiding an opponent (or a raging bull) also a skill?

you are missing the point entirely. I can take any olympic lifter and teach him to punch and he could kill a bull. But can he fight? not necessarily. It only means that he has the power to kill a bull.

Matadors danced around bulls all the time. Were they also known to be great fighters?

these are skills that CAN be used in fighting, yes. However, posessing them does not guarantee that you are a good fighter.

[Menjo]

good point, certainly better explained than my own

[Traditional-Fist]

My only point with the bulls is that it doesn't show much, other than strength. You can't base his fighting ability off of that feat. (which was mentioned earlier)

Without complicating the issue further. Once again, I disagree with your above statement. It is not just a question of only strength. Oyama or whoever who faces a bull and defeats it will need fighting ability and not just strength. And yes, skill is involved, together with the other "attributes", and that WAS my point, it is not just a matter of being strong.

There are other strong people and fighters in the world, some of whom you have just mentioned and believe that could kill a bull. Wether they would fight a bull bear handed has to be seen to be believed.

[elbows_and_knees]

Without complicating the issue further. Once again, I disagree with your above statement. It is not just a question of only strength. Oyama or whoever who faces a bull and defeats it will need fighting ability and not just strength. And yes, skill is involved, together with the other "attributes", and that WAS my point, it is not just a matter of being strong.

There are other strong people and fighters in the world, some of whom you have just mentioned and believe that could kill a bull. Wether they would fight a bull bear handed has to be seen to be believed.

It would take power and agility to defeat a bull. fighting a bull is completely different than fighting a man, which is part of the reason Why I said that killing a bull does not make him a great fighter. As for the guys I named, chances are that you will never see them try to kill a bull. Why? because it is completely pointless, as it proves nothing...

[Traditional-Fist]

It would take power and agility to defeat a bull. fighting a bull is completely different than fighting a man, which is part of the reason Why I said that killing a bull does not make him a great fighter.

Killing a bull might not make him a great fighter, if he is as you would say, just strong, eventhough I don't think just strengh would cut it. But, if it is a martial arts expert who is killing the bull, such as Oyama was, then he just might be a great fighter, don't you think?

As for the guys I named, chances are that you will never see them try to kill a bull. Why? because it is completely pointless, as it proves nothing...

That is not a fact, it is only your opinion.

[elbows_and_knees]

Killing a bull might not make him a great fighter, if he is as you would say, just strong, eventhough I don't think just strengh would cut it. But, if it is a martial arts expert who is killing the bull, such as Oyama was, then he just might be a great fighter, don't you think?

No. Killing bulls is not what made him great. he would have reached his status without it. As I said, killing bulls was pointless and ultimately proved nothing.

That is not a fact, it is only your opinion.

no, it's fact. It's a fact that I will not be considered a great fighter because I killed bulls. I will be considered a great fighter because I am successful in fights.

hypothetically, let's say one of the bulls killed oyama. After hearing about his skill, reading accounts of how he won countless fights, would he then be considered a low skill level fighter because he lost to the bull? why or why not?

[Traditional-Fist]

No. Killing bulls is not what made him great. he would have reached his status without it. As I said, killing bulls was pointless and ultimately proved nothing.

Killing bulls proved the power of his karate or at least added to its credibility and his credibility and that was in a MARTIAL CONTEXT..

no, it's fact. It's a fact that I will not be considered a great fighter because I killed bulls. I will be considered a great fighter because I am successful in fights.

So will I. However, killing a dangerous animal such as a bull with my bare hands, will demonstrate abilities beyond normal human capabilities and that is what Mas. Oyama did, and that is what I meant, in an earlier post with regards to "martial context".

It was not just "STRENGTH", it was fighting ability AMPLIFIED...I.E. Power, timing, courage, spirit and fighting ability, amplified to a level to defeat a bull.

hypothetically, let's say one of the bulls killed oyama. After hearing about his skill, reading accounts of how he won countless fights, would he then be considered a low skill level fighter because he lost to the bull? why or why not?

No he would not be a lesser fighter if he had lost to a bull, BUT, the point is that HE DID NOT, and that is what made him just that bit more extraordinary and it is unfair to say that it was purely a question of "strenght".

[ovine king]

Wasn't there some issue with the state of health/mind of the bulls that were used in the demonstrations?