Karate sparring UN EFFECTIVE ON STREET

[Traditional-Fist]

Gumbi,

My comment on fighting effectiveness was in reference to karate combat and not UFC style mixed martial arts.

Like Sauzin wrote - to know the best fighters one might need to travel a little bit and not just to Okinawa but also to Japan, China, Malaysia, Taiwan, Thailand etc.

It is worth saying that many Traditional MA experts do not feel the need to prove that they are the "best" by participating in commercially organized contests and by beating another human being to a pulp.

Many of them do however accept challenges and this has always been part of the traditon in many parts of the orient. Fighters/masters have many times settled their "doubts" in this way.

And no, the UFC fighters are not the best fighters in the world. However, they probably are the best fighters in the UFC.

[Neddo]

I think that with knowledge of green belt (3. kyu) you should be ready for street fight using only karate skills...

[Menjo]

Id have to disagree with you there. On the street if you can punch someone in the face and you have practiced enough, then that should be enough, if not with enough training you should easly be able to get someone on the ground onceve hit them in the face once, this presentes many opportunities to strike again again, however in the dojo you are taught to defend and run. There is no way therell will be karate tournaments where they will let someone else pound on someone else with techniques developed for centuries. Ive been attacked on the street, and it was over in 4 techniques(since the man was on meth it took more effort). A properly taught student in kumite can defend him/herself on the street.(depending on the situation)

[Menjo]

oops I meant I disagree with louie_shotokan, so no confusion.

[McBain]

Yes street fights are different than sparring but to take away the application and principals and discard them because they are developed in a controled environment is very closed minded. 90% of the world population does not even know how to generate power when attacking. Even if you have a basic understanding of leverage and principals of power, you have an advantage...the main focus one must have is to attack relentlessly....There is a kid in our class that does this..he has rage fueling his perpetual motion on his attacks...granted his technique is terrible, but it is good to spar him, because in real wold environments you will not be able to judge the actions of your attacker by the movement of their bodies. Oh and another thing...use your knees and elbows during the street and not just the feet and fists and attack the vital parts of the human body...make it your single goal to attack that person at that location and you will succeed. You have to destroy your opponent in the street and bring max punishment, because he plans to do the same to you.

Because of sparring I was able to apply empty mind and intimidate and detour a potential attacker. The confidence that you receive from sparring is part of the key to unlock your truth in warrior potential.

Plus physically...it helps your footwork, timing , reaction and accuracy of application applied.

[kzshin]

basically, I think sparing help you develop reflexes, and I think it's helpful, but yes, it's really different than real fight.

I also think people on the forum gave too much credit to UFC or mix martial art fighters.

[SubGrappler]

Gumbi,

It is worth saying that many Traditional MA experts do not feel the need to prove that they are the "best" by participating in commercially organized contests and by beating another human being to a pulp.

Many of them do however accept challenges and this has always been part of the traditon in many parts of the orient. Fighters/masters have many times settled their "doubts" in this way.

And no, the UFC fighters are not the best fighters in the world. However, they probably are the best fighters in the UFC.

Why are the UFC and Pride fighters THE BEST in the world?

Because they're mixed martial artists....

Any karate/ muay thai fighter, regardless of how long they've been training, would still be a traditionalist/one demensional fighter. Ground fighting is not a style of fighting- its a PHASE of fighting

No styles are banned in the numerous mixed martial arts events around the world, and many (such as Mecca) still have only the old restrictions with rules for no biting and no eye gouging only.

Any excuses of how they're "too deadly for the ring" is a lame excuse not to fight.

If someone says they dont want to fight in mixed martial arts events, thats perfectly fine- to each his own. But dont you dare claim you're the best, or even among the best if you havent stepped into that cage/ring.

[pers]

Just like to add that something that someone else also mentioned and that is the fact that contact sparring brings in more reality into sparring. Another important point is that to be an effective fighter one has to balance out his sparring training with the other aspects of karate including kata, makiwara and potent conditioning exercises - both for the body and the spirit.

I would say that if your training has maintained the essence of the art that is karate then your chances of survival in a real situation will be increased immensly. After all what good is having speed and accuracy (maybe from sparring training) to hit some assailant when you don't have the karate power to put him down with that single (or even a second) blow.

Also, the benefits of power are limited when you lack awareness, clear mindeness and the ability to shut out emotion (fear, anger etc.) associated with with a "hot situation".

So sparring has its place in karate training but has to be practised correctly and has to be complimented by the other (more) important elements of traditional karate training which are nowadays forgotten by many martial artists who for the wrong reasons concentrate only on the sparring and competion aspects of this great art.

I agree totally ,A good karate or martial arts school must prepare students for the real thing and that is street fight .Sparring partly attributes to developing the ability to street fight should the need be.

quality defers from one school to another .conditioning to improve the quality and power in the technique is of great importance ,once it is achieved then confidence developes and the ultimate aim in karate one technique finish ! is the goal .just like a piano player ,you can hear some one with 2 years of experience and a master with over say 15 years ,obviuosly their quality of training and number of years training will be evident from the sound they produce .karate technique is the same !

lets not forget most street fights are over within seconds ,so stamina is not the main concern but quality of the technique is !

[yamesu]

When martial-arts is taught without traditional philosophy, students tend to get large egos.

The octagon is NOT the ultimate test of fighting,

Refs call the fights off if there is blood drawn.

Whos going to end a violent confrontation in a bar once blood has been drawn?

MMA teaches to mount the opponent ASAP.

Mount someone in a city nightclub, and see how fast your head gets kicked by a 'good samaritan.'

Traditional MAists have accomplished things no ther human could.

Masutatsu Oyama Sosai, for example, felled over 50 bulls with his bare hands. Thats also after he was gored and bed-wridden for months on his first attempt.

He also put a challenge across the world, offering a full contact, bare knuckle fight to any contender. He was not defeated once.

He also beat 300 men, one after the other, in a ring fight which took over two days, and set a standard for the 100man kumite.

When Tido Ortiz or Randy Corture can wrestle a bull, fell it in a single strike, and walk away, to beat 300 men consecutively, bare knuckle-full contact, and then inlist over 13million students worldwide in one style of one branch of martial arts,

Then you can say MMAists are 'the best in the world'

On the topic of the post;

Kumite prepares us well for violent confrontations i think.

Distance, timing, reading body movement, and of course; learning to dish and take hits.

Of course the correct mindset must come with kumite for it to be completely effective, otherwise, as previously noted, its simply karate-tag.

Osu.

[elbows_and_knees]

When martial-arts is taught without traditional philosophy, students tend to get large egos.

that is COMPLETELY untrue. I can make it true though...

When MA is taught WITH OR WITHOUT philosophy AND the students do not test themselves, they tend to get large egos.

On tv, yeah, you see ego... it sells tickets, which makes them money. These guys are not like that in person though. Tito ortiz, for example makes regular contributions to several children's charities. I've met royce, and he is very humble.

most of my TMA friends have big egos - coincidentally, NONE of them compete. they say things like "grappling is fine, but I would just punch him in the throat" and "boxers don't have alot of skill - they just stand there and slug eachother," - that is ridiculous. The sport fighters I know, however, aren't like that. They respect anything that you can make work. Getting your butt kicked tends to be very humbling, and those who compete get their butts kicked on a reagular basis.

The octagon is NOT the ultimate test of fighting,

Refs call the fights off if there is blood drawn.

Whos going to end a violent confrontation in a bar once blood has been drawn?

We don't say that it is. However, it is the CLOSEST that you can SAFELY come to a real fight. How many people are killed or maimed where you train? If the answer is none, then are you training any more realistically than we are?

MMA teaches to mount the opponent ASAP.

No it doesn't. It's obvious that you don't know much about mma training and strategy.

Mount someone in a city nightclub, and see how fast your head gets kicked by a 'good samaritan.'

I'm a bouncer at one of the most popular clubs in my city's downtown area. I have had no problems yet. matter of factly, one of our guys mounted someone last week. He had to take him down, and the guy turned to his stomach. The bouncer mounted him and shoved his head against the floor. Nobody touched him. that's not to say that other people will never jump in, but it doesn't always happen, either.

Traditional MAists have accomplished things no ther human could.

Masutatsu Oyama Sosai, for example, felled over 50 bulls with his bare hands. Thats also after he was gored and bed-wridden for months on his first attempt.

1. I'm sure others that wanted to try could as well. It's a good accomplishment, but he's not the only one that could do it, I'm sure.

2. it's been said that the bulls he killed were already sickly to begin with.

He also put a challenge across the world, offering a full contact, bare knuckle fight to any contender. He was not defeated once.

He also beat 300 men, one after the other, in a ring fight which took over two days, and set a standard for the 100man kumite.

please post the names of all 300.

When Tido Ortiz or Randy Corture can wrestle a bull, fell it in a single strike, and walk away, to beat 300 men consecutively, bare knuckle-full contact, and then inlist over 13million students worldwide in one style of one branch of martial arts,

Then you can say MMAists are 'the best in the world'

1. we don't say that mma are the best - there is no best.

2. oyama began incorporation thai boxing after fighting a few thai boxers, did he not?

3. who REALLY cares about killing a bull? It proves he's strong, but not much else.

4. if you count MMA as a style, then it has enlisted millions - and that is only since around 1995.

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lets not forget most street fights are over within seconds ,so stamina is not the main concern but quality of the technique is !

you do understand how adrenaline works, right? It saps your energy. It increases sight, strength, etc. TEMPORARILY, then it leaves you sapped and tired. Since you guys are big on talking about multiple opponent fights, we'll use that as an example - adrenaline won't save you there. this is where conditioning comes in handy. What if you have to run? there's more benefit of conditioning. Also, not all fights last only a few seconds. To prepare yourself for the ideal is not a smart thing. you should prepare for the worst, no?