omitting basics for advanced students !??

[JusticeZero]

The other thing is that sparring is NOT a realistic drill. It's a useful drill, yes. But it gives you bad habits for one, and the usefulness of techniques is distorted by the non-fight-like behavior of the combatants.

I spar with people we stand outside range waiting for one to enter, they jump in with some low commitment flicky long range thing, I have to whip out a fast counter and hope I can pop a return in before they flee out of range. Other videos I see of sparring sessions reveals similar behaviors. I can't use a lot of my arsenal in such a situation, they won't commit enough to give an opening, and it's not easy for me to "control" (in itself another bad habit) driving my head up into someone's chin or some such, even if they were to not flee from it in a manner unlike someone who actually meant me harm.

[Meguro]

The other thing is that sparring is NOT a realistic drill. It's a useful drill, yes. But it gives you bad habits for one, and the usefulness of techniques is distorted by the non-fight-like behavior of the combatants.

I spar with people we stand outside range waiting for one to enter, they jump in with some low commitment flicky long range thing, I have to whip out a fast counter and hope I can pop a return in before they flee out of range. Other videos I see of sparring sessions reveals similar behaviors. I can't use a lot of my arsenal in such a situation, they won't commit enough to give an opening, and it's not easy for me to "control" (in itself another bad habit) driving my head up into someone's chin or some such, even if they were to not flee from it in a manner unlike someone who actually meant me harm.

Justice, I can see how your own sparring experience is not a good one. I don't believe it applies to everyone else, certainly not the way I spar.

Everyone's opinion is biased by the style they practice. People whose martial arts are very Kata centered and those who do point fighting will have a different training regimen and different training objectives, than practitioners of other styles. This is not to say I advocate eliminating the basics for everyone, I still benefit from them, but for the op's 2nd dan, maybe it's a better use of his time.

SevenStar, when quoting me, did you read the quote? Nothing you said contradicts anything I said.

Sam, Sam, Sam, that my analogies don't work for you does not mean they're not apt, just that you and I do not share the same understanding of the terms in question. Next time, you define the terms and come up with an analogy.

[JusticeZero]

It wouldn't be as bad if they intended to do something besides 'spar'. To do nothing but spar is just as bad as deciding to do nothing but forms.

And i've seen a number of groups spar. I can confidently say that ALL of them do that unrealistic jousting. That's why people "revert to kickboxing"; they drop to the long striking basics they can do with low commitment and are never granted any openings for other techniques.

[SevenStar]

The other thing is that sparring is NOT a realistic drill. It's a useful drill, yes. But it gives you bad habits for one, and the usefulness of techniques is distorted by the non-fight-like behavior of the combatants.

I spar with people we stand outside range waiting for one to enter, they jump in with some low commitment flicky long range thing, I have to whip out a fast counter and hope I can pop a return in before they flee out of range. Other videos I see of sparring sessions reveals similar behaviors. I can't use a lot of my arsenal in such a situation, they won't commit enough to give an opening, and it's not easy for me to "control" (in itself another bad habit) driving my head up into someone's chin or some such, even if they were to not flee from it in a manner unlike someone who actually meant me harm.

in the case of point sparring, I agree with you. In the case of full contact, no. Matter of faclty, I spar pretty regularly with the capoeira instructor who teaches at out club. He kicks like a mule. we strike, clinch, kick, etc. he doesn't have any problems with it. since we are going full contact, we don't have the committment issues you speak of.

[vertigo]

I don't think having advanced students skip the basics is a good idea at all. I have to agree that by the time one is a black belt, they have a firm grasp of basics. However, that doesn't necessarily mean they are as good as possible, nor are they always going to stay that well (without work, their basics will deteriorate). Basics are the foundation of your training, and they constantly need maintenence and fine-tuning to keep the rest of your techniques going strong.

This is all in my beginner opinion; but so far, these are my observations and thoughts.

[Grenadier]

I disagree with this nidan's assessment.

No matter how advanced someone is in another style, there are inevitably, going to be some significant differences, especially in the basics, in which all things are built upon.

While an advanced student coming in will find it easier to make adjustments to his old set of basics compared to a beginner trying to learn from the start, it still requires continual execution and practice.

If the so-called minor nuances are never developed just because someone was an advanced rank coming in, it's going to show at the worst moments. Imagine the frowns from some people's faces when they see that an advanced student is performing a technique in the kata in the "wrong" manner, even though it was "right" in another style.

Everyone should still practice the basics, no matter how advanced they become, even if they have been in the style for decades.

[Sam]

This is actually what i was trying to say - explanation by analogy doesnt really work when explaining to others as they all have their own analogies, and also they tend to fall apart when you take them to far.

Not trying to make this into an arguement, so im not going to post on this thread after this as ive said what i feel about the topic so anything else i add would be repetition.

[y2_sub]

All the posts that i have allready read concentrate similar point of view which is " without work, their basics will deteriorate " , you are missing one point here , by working on the bag you are indeed practicing the basics , only in an advanced and competition-oriented way .

Fighting the bag is most important because it is tireless and senseless so it will always beat you no matter how powerfull you are

Not to say sparring against a human is less important . However bags don't block or hit back . It is initial that one fights against other advanced students in the dojo .however , as for the Nidan we are talking about, these rules don't apply on him because he is a heavyweight ( over 110 kilos ) and not anyone would have the physical power to spare with him , so he just have to train on the bag , which is best for all not just for him , lol ..

Moreover , that does not only apply on him , I ( for example ), as a yoshudan , cannot spare with less experienced students , so we're back to the major problem of training on air OR on bag which i certainly prefer.

[AnonymousOne]

Extremely foolish idea indeed!!

[SevenStar]

All the posts that i have allready read concentrate similar point of view which is " without work, their basics will deteriorate " , you are missing one point here , by working on the bag you are indeed practicing the basics , only in an advanced and competition-oriented way .

actually, no you are not, in most cases. Put 90% of the population in front of a heavy bag and watch them. What to they do? just stand there and punch it. no footwork at all, which is part of their basics. they get too caught up in simply hitting it hard. For styles that block, how do you practice an inside block or an outside block? get real close to the bag so that your forearm smacks it? No. you can't practice everything on the bag, and thus dedicated work on the basics is necessary.

Fighting the bag is most important because it is tireless and senseless so it will always beat you no matter how powerfull you are

case in point, right there - the heavy isn't all about power. It's about speed and movement as well.

Not to say sparring against a human is less important . However bags don't block or hit back . It is initial that one fights against other advanced students in the dojo .however , as for the Nidan we are talking about, these rules don't apply on him because he is a heavyweight ( over 110 kilos ) and not anyone would have the physical power to spare with him , so he just have to train on the bag , which is best for all not just for him , lol ..

the effect of physical power is lessened as skill becomes more equal. I outweigh my coach, but he can beat me, because he is better than me. When I hit him, does it hurt? Heck yeah it does, but he can suck the pain up and still out fight me.

Moreover , that does not only apply on him , I ( for example ), as a yoshudan , cannot spare with less experienced students , so we're back to the major problem of training on air OR on bag which i certainly prefer.

Why can't you? I do it all the time. You have to look at sparring from an aspect of skill improvement. let's say I am better than you and we are sparring. I'm not going to just try to beat you - that's to easy. i will pick a skill that I need to work, and work it. Since I am better than you anyway, it's not a problem for me to get my timing right for the technique. so, for example, I want to work slipping only. So, I make a conscious effort not to parry any of your punches - I only slip them. You cannot do this with a bag, because, as you pointed out - the bag cannont hit back.