omitting basics for advanced students !??

[y2_sub]

actually, no you are not, in most cases. Put 90% of the population in front of a heavy bag and watch them. What to they do? just stand there and punch it. no footwork at all, which is part of their basics. they get too caught up in simply hitting it hard. For styles that block, how do you practice an inside block or an outside block? get real close to the bag so that your forearm smacks it? No. you can't practice everything on the bag, and thus dedicated work on the basics is necessary.

True if one is training alone .

Case of organized training , the instructor will tell you what to do ( perform 50 front kicks on the bag , and after that do some pushups , etc , etc ,) . It's not just about fighting the bag , it is also performing tecniques on it and the fight would be the last step after you are completly exhosted.

case in point, right there - the heavy isn't all about power. It's about speed and movement as well.

Training on the bag is all about power which is verry important in my style , however you can aquire some speed and movement from bag training

the effect of physical power is lessened as skill becomes more equal. I outweigh my coach, but he can beat me, because he is better than me. When I hit him, does it hurt? Heck yeah it does, but he can suck the pain up and still out fight me

True , i can spare with brown belts who are much havier than me . BUT THAT NIDAN IS IN THE SAME SKILL LEVEL and 50 kilos havier ( 115 kilos minus 70 kilos , do the math )

Why can't you? I do it all the time. You have to look at sparring from an aspect of skill improvement. let's say I am better than you and we are sparring. I'm not going to just try to beat you - that's to easy. i will pick a skill that I need to work, and work it. Since I am better than you anyway, it's not a problem for me to get my timing right for the technique. so, for example, I want to work slipping only. So, I make a conscious effort not to parry any of your punches - I only slip them. You cannot do this with a bag, because, as you pointed out - the bag cannont hit back.

It's not always about improving one skill , sometimes you just need to use all the arsenal you have , anyway i don't have a major problem with that since i fight yoshudans in the dojo whenever its possible , sometimes it happens that they are injured or not in the mood to fight me , so back to the bag .

[SevenStar]

True if one is training alone .

Case of organized training , the instructor will tell you what to do ( perform 50 front kicks on the bag , and after that do some pushups , etc , etc ,) . It's not just about fighting the bag , it is also performing tecniques on it and the fight would be the last step after you are completly exhosted.

that still doesn't address the point of movement - that is the biggest mistake I see people make on the heavy bags - the don't move, they only strike, standing in the same spot. That reinforces bad habits.

Training on the bag is all about power which is verry important in my style , however you can aquire some speed and movement from bag training

I'm a thai boxer... we're about power as well, however, you also must move - see above point about movement.

It's not always about improving one skill , sometimes you just need to use all the arsenal you have , anyway i don't have a major problem with that since i fight yoshudans in the dojo whenever its possible , sometimes it happens that they are injured or not in the mood to fight me , so back to the bag .

we'll just have to differ on that one. sparring is ALWAYS about skill improvement. it's a training drill. competition is the battlefield. sparring is where you learn. If i want to spar and one person doesn't want to, I find another. There always seems to be at least ONE person. If they are less skilled than me, than I focus on one or two aspects that I need work on anyway and work those.

[y2_sub]

that still doesn't address the point of movement - that is the biggest mistake I see people make on the heavy bags - the don't move, they only strike, standing in the same spot. That reinforces bad habits.

Not always , when striking the bag , it's going to move , so you might want to move with it , thats where u aquire some movement . There are some persons who just stand there and strike , usually they use hand strikes and low kicks , since those moves don't require a great deal of movement .

I'm a thai boxer... we're about power as well, however, you also must move - see above point about movement.

I said that you might aquire some movement from bag training , the same movement that you'l aquire while punshing air . Real movement is gained by training and sparing with a human , the same idea is still present , no basics.

we'll just have to differ on that one. sparring is ALWAYS about skill improvement. it's a training drill. competition is the battlefield. sparring is where you learn. If i want to spar and one person doesn't want to, I find another. There always seems to be at least ONE person. If they are less skilled than me, than I focus on one or two aspects that I need work on anyway and work those.

sometimes you just want to FIGHT .

In military drills , they just bombard an empty area with all the weapons that they have . No real target is present . taht experience aquired from targetting an empty area , is actually used on the battlefield , same goes for that bag .

[SevenStar]

Not always , when striking the bag , it's going to move , so you might want to move with it , thats where u aquire some movement . There are some persons who just stand there and strike , usually they use hand strikes and low kicks , since those moves don't require a great deal of movement .

The point of it is to ingrain footwork. it's not about the technique itself requiring movement. One thing I've noticed is that when people get in the habit of standing in one place, it carries over into sparring - which is bad. they neglect footwork, head movement, etc. and just stay in the same general area.

I said that you might aquire some movement from bag training , the same movement that you'l aquire while punshing air . Real movement is gained by training and sparing with a human , the same idea is still present , no basics.

see above.

sometimes you just want to FIGHT .

In military drills , they just bombard an empty area with all the weapons that they have . No real target is present . taht experience aquired from targetting an empty area , is actually used on the battlefield , same goes for that bag .

if you want to fight, don't half step - fight. you can't really FIGHT with people in your gym - that's where competition comes in. sparring is a training exercise, as is bagwork. competition is where you fight. That's not to say that you can't spar hard - you should. but the mentality of that is not the same as the one present in the ring.

[y2_sub]

The point of it is to ingrain footwork. it's not about the technique itself requiring movement. One thing I've noticed is that when people get in the habit of standing in one place, it carries over into sparring - which is bad. they neglect footwork, head movement, etc. and just stay in the same general area.

Thast true if one is only training on the bag .

From what i understoud from previous posts , your background is Muay tai ..

the principle of movement differs from Muay tai to kyokushin , in Muay tai , one usually moves in and out , avoiding some hits , sometimes waiting for the opponent to strike , etc , etc ..

thats not the case in kyokushin where most of fights are " no turning back fights " , when the striking begains , it only stops when the round is over , insted of avoiding a strike , kyokushin fighter absorbes it ( or blocks it ) , i don't know if you got my point , you won't understand what i am talking about unless you do it , a kyokushin karateka must be solid as a rock , movment is less important than power ( power , movement and then technique , Oyama's order) .

sometimes you just want to FIGHT .

In military drills , they just bombard an empty area with all the weapons that they have . No real target is present . taht experience aquired from targetting an empty area , is actually used on the battlefield , same goes for that bag .

if you want to fight, don't half step - fight. you can't really FIGHT with people in your gym - that's where competition comes in. sparring is a training exercise, as is bagwork. competition is where you fight. That's not to say that you can't spar hard - you should. but the mentality of that is not the same as the one present in the ring.

Agreed , thats what i am talking about in the first place , one can only use all his moves in competition or the street , sparing and bagwork are complement to each others , and very important . I want to ask you a question here , WHERE ARE THE BASICS ?????

[CapitalKarate]

To answer the question... you never stop training in the basics. The basics are the building block, the cornerstone of the art, you need to practice them until you stop practicing the art.

[ivette_green]

A concert pianist still practices scales.

[AnonymousOne]

Imagine a marathon runner who decided to forget the basics...

[y2_sub]

Imagine a marathon runner who decided to forget the basics...

To answer you guys , and i said it before , we didn't decide to stop training basics , we decided to stop training basics on it's primaery form which means punching and kicking air and using heavy bags insted so we actually are doing the basics in a "saprring-oriented" way .

And let me tell you something , it happned that sensei wasn't instructing the junior class this month and he asked me to do it insted of him , so what i did is applaying that idea to c what would be the results . And just today we had a tournament ( for juniors as well ) guess what , my boys took all the gold and silver knowing that in the previous tournament most of them lost from the first match . I am happy to c that our idea actually worked , if it effected on juniors like that ( highest rank was green belt ) what would be the reults for yoshudans ?????????????

[karate_woman]

I think that having a blackbelt class where they use tools like focus pads, and/or heavy bags is fine. It might be an idea to add a class a week, or every other week that just focuses on sparring techniques. In periods where you're gearing up for tournaments, adding a special focus would be great.

I wouldn't recommend eliminating basics altogether, however, as the movements in sparring are different than in basics/kata.

Generally, as I'm sure you're aware, the movements in basics are more exagerrated than their sparring counterparts. In addition, the movements in sparring are subject to the rule limitations for sparring in your sport (light contact, no contact, no head contact, nothing below the waist, etc), whereas your basics should focus on all potential targets. Focusing solely on what works best for point sparring will make you fast, and good at that particular activity, but can allow for very sloppy techniques that may be ineffective in actuality.

I really think a balanced approach is best. The measure of the effectiveness of the training methods of a (traditional) martial art is not necessarily how well it does in point sparring competitions.