omitting basics for advanced students !??

[y2_sub]

A second degree black belt in our dojo proposed an idea which is : an advanced player ( yoshudan ) should switch from performing basics and sparring into sparring training only .. his claims are

1 - an advanced student has already learned basics and has no need to

repeat the same techniques every session

2 - training on fitness bag is more energy drilling , plus , you can practice

moves with full contact without the fear of hurting ur fellow training partners

Your comments

[JusticeZero]

Seems like a foolish idea to me. I can pop out basics easily, but if I only train advanced techniques for a week, the next time I do a basic technique, I can feel how far they've slipped, even though they are partly made up of basic movements.

[SevenStar]

bad idea.

[Belasko]

You can't keep up your skill in something if you don't practice it. If you don't have the basics mastered everything past that will suffer. Basically the theory of "if you don't use it, you lose it"

[Meguro]

Presumably, the advanced techniques incorporate some aspect of the basics. How many of us, presumably functional adults, practice grammer school drills? Or consider riders of bicycles. They don't revert to putting on the training wheels to maintain their riding skills from time to time, they just ride.

I don't believe yudansha lose too much by not doing kihon as long as they're doing something that incorporates the basics. However, I also recognize that people do basics and kata as an end in itself. This is fine too.

[Sam]

I agree in a sense, but any skill goes out of practice, and the analogy that you propose (meguro) is not really valid - becuase by the same anology i could say......

when learning a foreign language until i am absolutely fluent (mastery) i will practice the basic grammatical rules; and also language is completely different from MA anyway.

Riding a bicycle is nothing as complicated as a basic technique.

Riding a bicycle is simply overcoming a fear and de balancing yourself, thats really all there is, whereas technique is not so innately learned.

Although i agree to some extent the analogies are flawed.

There are very few things that could be compared to the practice of MA; and IMHO i would always see it as appropriate to continue to pactice the basics.

Incase this comes out as rude or a flame, i dont mean it to be, so ill apologise in advance if anyone takes it thisway, im in a bit of a rush

[Meguro]

Read carefully Sam, I think you'll agree completely. A second degree black belt, should already have an understanding of the mechanics (zenkutsu dachi goes like this, mawashi geri like that, ushiro geri like this, etc.), and the muscle memory to do these basic techniques. If this black belt incorporates these techniques in his/her bag work-out, nothing is lost.

Unless you're making circles in the safety of your parents' driveway, there's more to bike riding than overcoming fear and learning balance, no mean feats in themselves. Take your bike out on the road and now you're dealing with traffic, pedestrians, changing road conditions and surfaces. Soon you'll find that the little circles on the driveway you made with training wheels on your bike have contributed only a little bit to your riding ability. Perhaps the most valuable riding lessons will be learned after you've acquired the basics.

This is true for Karate. In the op's case, I understand from previous posts that his style is Kyokushin, I'm assuming the 2nd dan is training for knock-down competitions or to improve fighting skills in general. In this case, time would be better spent on bagwork and sparring rather than "step forward and punch air" drills.

[ninjanurse]

I agree with Justice...foolish. Sounds to me like he thinks he has perfected the basics as a shodan!

Training on the bag or heavy sparring should be done by 2nd degrees IN ADDITION TO all other curriculum...and it should take more time and effort to balance your training otherwise you probably are not ready to hold that rank.

[SevenStar]

Read carefully Sam, I think you'll agree completely. A second degree black belt, should already have an understanding of the mechanics (zenkutsu dachi goes like this, mawashi geri like that, ushiro geri like this, etc.), and the muscle memory to do these basic techniques. If this black belt incorporates these techniques in his/her bag work-out, nothing is lost.

there is a difference between understanding and mastery. There is always something to be learned. look at a pro fighter for example - tyson knows the basics of boxing, yet why does he pratice his strikes over and over in the heavy bag and focus mitts? why does he do footwork drills? mastery comes through repitition. I've been thai boxing for years, and I still do basic walking drills where I go up and down the floor throwing basic techniques. every good MA that I know does something similar.

[Sam]

The analogy you draw again is slightly flawed in that gonig out on the road is more like gonig into a fight...... advance techniques are the same as basic just done in a differtn way;

gonig out on a road is a different kettle of fish to just riding a bike... implying that training is completely differnt from actually going out and fighting.... different skill set : kicking a back, reading an enemy.... just dont like proof by analogy guess thats my problem!!!