MA defense vs. gun defense

[Venrix]

Tullers rule says that at 21 feet a person with a knife (this can be any weapon, or even someone unarmed) can reach a Law Enforcement Officer (who has the pistol in a holster on their side) and stab them before the officer can draw the weapon and fire. (this distance was lengthened to 30 feet by the FBI )

Based on this information, what chance does a civilian have at drawing a weapon, possibly concealed (longer draw time), at a much smaller distance during a mugging or robbery?

That just about wraps up this thread I think.

The need for 'defence' is typically very sudden indeed, most commonly a suprise attack at VERY close range [typically within 18inches]. A guns not going to be a much use I'm afraid.

-V-

[Kicks]

Before we wrap this up, I'd like to add my 2 cents.

What defense would you use in close range or at a distance?

I do WTF TKD, but we also train in Hapkido. We practice against multiple types of weapons and attacks. This is what I have found I am best at in these situations:

In close range, face to face, gun pointed chest level to head level: If the guy just wants money I take wallet out and give it to him. If he wants to take me somewhere else, or if I feel he will shoot me even if I give up the wallet I'll divert his attention to the opposite side of gun (if he's holding gun in right hand I'll distract him to his left). I'll either tell him my money is in that red Mustang over there (nodding to his left, or toss my wallet to his left). When he looks that way I'll first move to my left - out of the line of fire; my right hand swings hard and fast striking the nerves in his wrist holding the gun while at same time my left hand swings across and grabs the gun pushing it through his now opened fingers. My son can do this technique so fast you don't even see it happening. It all comes with practice.

If at a distance, I'll toss wallet and run. Remember, most of these thugs don't spend time at the firing range practicing marksmanship. Chances are they'll miss, especially if you are zigzagging. Just don't zig when you're supposed to zag.

On another note, if someone tried to force me to drive them somewhere by gunpoint, I would hand them the keys and tell them they could have my car, but I would NOT be going with them.

This is an important thing to remember. If the thug wants you to get in a car...DON"T!!!! Fight your battle right there. Stats show that people who get in the car are most likely going to be killed. The thug wants to take you off the street where other people can see to a secluded area. Fight like your life depends on it, because it does!

I would pull the trigger until all the bullets were spent. Then the gun becomes nothing more than a real bad stick or throwing object.

Why is it that when a bad guys shoots at Superman and the bullets bounce off him, that when they run out of bullets they throw the gun at him and he ducks out the way? Is he afraid of the gun hurting him?

[Venrix]

Why is it that when a bad guys shoots at Superman and the bullets bounce off him, that when they run out of bullets they throw the gun at him and he ducks out the way? Is he afraid of the gun hurting him?

I'm still giggling at that.

Invisible special-fx bullets but real plastic gun. You could have someones eye out with that.

[SoonerJohn]

I still wouldn't discount either approach. The only issue at hand is how practical it is to constantly carry a gun as compared to how practical it is to learn a martial art or any basic disarming procedure.

If a guy comes at you with a knife, you simply go the opposite direction while drawing or use a sidekick while drawing.

If he has a gun, well, your probably just screwed if he gets the drop on you anyway. If he is close enough to you when he starts to pull the weapon out I'd say disarm him. Personally, I'm not to sure I could successfully disarm someone who had a gun pointed at me unless he was real close or drugged. A simple side step, back step and your probably gonna take a bullet. Of course having a gun gives you no real hope in this situation either unless the guy makes a stupid mistake.

A real life story I remember reading was similar to this scenario in that a guy had two assailants approach him with a gun drawn. He had a concealed weapon as well. He knew he couldn't draw his weapon and was forced to take them back to his house so they could rob him. He knew he was in trouble and waited till he could draw his weapon and was successful in killing one assailant and disabling the other.

In that situation, martials arts disarming would have been severely restricted and probably innefective.

Both have their effective roles its just a matter of practicality. Some people may not be able to effectively learn a martial art and this should be considered as well.

Personally, I have a gun, but it never gets taken out of the nightstand anymore. I just hope I have a good pair of running shoes on if a bad situation happens.

[Ben Martin]

I also don't have a gun, nor do I really ever forsee carrying one.

If I was ever faced in this situation, I'd simply give them the money they wanted. If it became apparant that they (for whatever reason) were intent on killing me, then and only then do I try to disarm them or fight against them.

No amount of money is worth your life.

Just my thoughts

i totally agree with you

lol @ the 50 cent lyric i'd die for my chain

[Armbar]

A real life story I remember reading was similar to this scenario in that a guy had two assailants approach him with a gun drawn. He had a concealed weapon as well. He knew he couldn't draw his weapon and was forced to take them back to his house so they could rob him. He knew he was in trouble and waited till he could draw his weapon and was successful in killing one assailant and disabling the other.

This brings up a valid point. How would you be able to defend yourself against more then one person wielding a firearm? Does anybody have any drills or techniques that would realistically work, besides using a firearm? I'll have to go work on that and see what I can come up with, if anything...

I just hope I have a good pair of running shoes on if a bad situation happens.

Yes, I agree. Your primary martial art in a bad situation should always be the tried and tested art of the Track & Field Sprinter

[unknown]

It is quite un-wise to try and disarm a guy with a gun. If all he wants is the $20 in your pocket I'd say give it to him.

If he grabs you and says "lets go for a ride" and drives you out to the woods? Then I'd say try and disarm him.

[Kicks]

If he grabs you and says "lets go for a ride" and drives you out to the woods? Then I'd say try and disarm him.

DO NOT let him drive you to the woods or any place else! Fight your battle right there on the street where they may be witnesses or help. He wants to take from a location he is uncomfortable to a location where he feels comfortable to do his harm. Police stats show that people abducted and 'taken to the woods' are more often killed.

If all he wants is the $20 in your pocket I'd say give it to him.

Absolutely correct.

[karsh44]

I think the gun is an option. In the situations described, where there is no distance between you, then disarming is definitely best. But what about when you're in the dark parking garage on your way to the car, and you see those two suspicious guys standing a couple cars down? If you have your hand on the gun already, or have drawn but keep it out of site, you are ready to react instantly if they make a move on you. Just the sight of you pulling out a gun may be enough to make them stand back.

IMHO, you can never have too many options when it comes to defending yourself. being both skilled and armed gives you more options, to deal with more situations. I would agree that you're more likely to be in a situation where MA skill would be appropriate, but I stick with the old saying "Its better to have it and not need it (or be able to use it), than need it and not have it."

[CloudDragon]

I carry a gun and am glad I do. Last week while driving into my apartment complex, ( I live on a dead end street) I saw a car that "didn't belong" driving in the middle of the street toward me. I was able to go around them and get to my parking spot. At this time I saw the car stop, (I counted about 5 people in the car.) I was about 20 feet from the passenger door, and had time to grab my ASP baton in the door and watch as one of the passengers got out of the car. He was covered in jailhouse tats and looked like he hadn't showered in a week. He took about 3 steps toward me and stopped when he saw the baton (collapsed) and asked for directions to some place on the other side of town. I gave him directions out of the complex and he politely thanked me and left.

The point is: I don't think that he would have stopped if I was: A) a woman, or B) unarmed. It is the predatory mentality. Attack the weak in packs. If they all jumped out of the car, I would have drawn, (not pointed) my gun. Call me paranoid if you will, I just feel I am motivated to live.

I think that one on one, at close to mid range, I could disarm an attacker with relative ease. But, life isn't just one on one. People need to realize this, predators dont fight fair. Protect yourself.