Is Piano Study Compatible With TSD?

[anothermom]

My 9 year old daughter started Tang Soo Do lessons just over a month ago. She works out at the dojang about an hour a day, five days a week, and spends about another hour a day practicing forms and kicks at home.

She is still working on making sure her fists are tight and her thumb is out of the way while going through the form she is practicing, however, it isn't a natural habit for her yet. The instructors are aware of this since they do remind her of this. She is also working on getting her kicks higher. She is getting better, but some of them still come out too low.

Yesterday, one of the instructors asked the kids to punch and kick one of those free standing vinyl punching bags. The plastic base is about 2 feet high. My daughter is 4 feet tall. She was asked to punch and kick the bag in rapid succession - 2 punches/2 kicks pattern. I could tell from where I was sitting that she wasn't always tucking in her thumbs. More often than not, her wrists were collapsing as she struck the bag. She kicked the plastic base more than once until she finally scraped it enough to draw a bit of blood. The tops of her feet and the tops of her fingers right above the knuckle joint were red for several hours after the class.

The workout the instuctor was asking of her didn't seem out of line at the time, but now I'm wondering if maybe I'm wrong? Should a beginner who has poor fist technique (thumbs not always tucked and not always tight) be going at it on a punching bag at this point?

She is very serious about her piano studies (late intermediate - advanced) and would like to keep her hands healthy. She knows that proper fist formation is one step in that direction, but still needs work on it. Is there anything else she can do to decrease chances of hand/wrist injuries while punching a bag? One of the many reasons why she wants to learn martial arts is to enhance her concentration, discipline, and body awareness as a means to enhance her piano studies. Or maybe a serious piano student shouldn't be learning TSD?

What about her feet? The scrape on the top of her foot isn't a big deal except that she can't wear her shoes while using the piano pedal today. I'm wondering if a petite beginner who is just developing some height in the kicks should be working out on a free standing punching bag with a 2 foot base.

Thanks for any insight

[ZR440]

Sounds like she's trying too hard, too fast with sloppy mechanics. All she really needs to do is slow down. The instructor might have reminded her about proper technique, but allowed it to continue?

And she's working on high kicks for what reason? To get to the elevation of equipment thats probably set up for adults? The instructor should know better.

You can expect her to get some bumps and bruises, but sounds like the instructor is an idiot.

[anothermom]

She is working on higher kicks because the instructors tell her to kick higher while doing front kicks, side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and spinning back kicks.

She is not asking to use the equipment. They are telling her to do it. I have Zero experience with TSD, so it's difficult for me to tell whether the instructor's expectations are reasonable or not.

She really likes TSD and looks forward to developing it, but not at the expense of ruining her ability to play the piano.

[Jinxx0r]

It wouldn't work like that in my dojang. In the kids class they use the focus paddles for kids. They are much more forgiving than a stand up bag or a heavy bag. During that time my Sa Bom teaches them how to use a proper fist (and he's tells them this ENDLESSLY, it must be a common thing with kids). One of the other things that is taught to beginners is a palm strike. Less chance of hurting themselves while they strengthen their hands AND their technique.

If she hits that thing wrong, with her wrist out of alignment, she will eventually hurt herself. I've hurt myself, and I know better. Her chance is higher.

Last of all, the callouses and tougher skin will come with time. The skin on her hands and feet will toughen up. Sounds like this thing is canvas? You said vinyl, which would be more like a floor burn, but I could be wrong (canvas is nasty to untrained hands and feet).

IMO, I don't think kids should be pounding solid bags and equipment. I think of those developing joints and it makes me cringe.

[ZR440]

IMO, a beginner like her doesn't need to practice any kick higher than their waist, and certainly not spin kicks. Some instructors let the youngsters go at it with the bags because kids have short attention spans and not much patience, so correct technique can be ignored only because the instructors want to make class fun so that mommy will continue paying monthly dues. If they learn bad form now it only leads to worse form later, not unlike learning to play the piano. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

[Slydermv]

I don't know... you can't expect a person to have perfect form right away. You kick and kick and kick and punch and punch and punch and adjust until you get it right. (I've only recently got my technique for simple turning kick down and I've been training for a while now. It takes time for you to get out of bad habits and for your muscles to memorize the correct way of doing things).

Another thing is an instructor in a class can't sit and watch just one person. If her punches are wrong now... they will get better, but it'll take time, (she has to unlearn the habit with her thumb for example) and her hands might get hurt. Things like that happen, even if your form is correct.

MA's do involve physical activity and if you don't want your daughter to get hurt, she shouldn't be involved. Hitting a padded bag isn't really all that bad.

What's gonna happen when she starts sparring and people are kicking at her head?

I understand however that you are worried about your childs well being. If you were that concerned, I would voice these concerns to the instructor in a respectful mannor. He is working for you afterall.

[anothermom]

JinxxOr: Unfortunately, she wasn't hitting the bag correctly very often from what I could tell. Although the instructors are always telling her about her fists when she is practicing forms or punching into the air, no one was correcting her while she was hitting the vinyl bag yesterday. The tops of her feet and hands had splotchy red color to them that disappeared within a few hours, but they weren't burned. The abrasion on her foot was caused by the plastic base filled with water. The abrasion in itself was not a problem. The way it happened bothered me, though. It took only 10 minutes to redden her feet and for her to finally kick the base probably because she was getting tired of the punch-punch-kick-kick repetitions. Also, she said she was fine. I'm sure she was. However, I'm concerned about the long term consequences of potentially improper training techniques. At this point, I'm not completely sure what is reasonable and what is not.

ZR440: They are encouraging her to kick higher into the air than her waist for the front, side, and round house. This generally isn't a problem for her unless she has to do several repetitions in a row. I haven't seen them say anything about height when she is working on a spinning back kick. She is also working on down blocks, middle punches, high punches, and high blocks (no sparring) as well as kee cho hyung il bu.

I don't know why they put her on a bag. Her attention span is fine. She understands all about nit picking when it comes to form and technique on the piano, so such nit picking during TSD class for one hour wouldn't bother her at all. This Mommy will not renew the contract if they don't do everything possible to reduce the chances of serious injury.

It looks like that maybe encouraging her to use an adult sized punching bag with a high base while using poor technique is not a necessary part of learning TSD at this time. I will probably try talking with the instructors about this. It's either that, look for another dojang, or quit altogether. ::sigh::

When I signed her up, I believed that TSD wouldn't be any more threat to her hands than riding a bike, skating, swimming, soccer, etc. From what I saw yesterday, I'm not so sure anymore.

Thanks so much for your input.

[anothermom]

Slydermv: She has been doing this for 5 weeks. I guess I wish they would allow her to work on her thumb issues away from the bag. My wishes might be unreasonable, though.

As for sparring -

I was thinking that maybe they won't put her in that situation until she is properly trained. Then again, maybe my expectations are unreasonable.

[Hogosha]

It sounds like your scared of her getting hurt, just remember she's doing MAs and she will get hurt.

[Slydermv]

Slydermv: She has been doing this for 5 weeks. I guess I wish they would allow her to work on her thumb issues away from the bag. My wishes might be unreasonable, though..

Reasonable enough... talk to the instructor. I'm sure he'll be helpful

As for sparring -

I was thinking that maybe they won't put her in that situation until she is properly trained. Then again, maybe my expectations are unreasonable.

Well black belts are properly trained, but even they get kicked in the head. I'm not trying to scare you, but martial arts are just that... martial. They teach you to fight, or at least sport spar (what I do). Alot of physcial contact is involved. Consessions must be made for children... I agree, but you also have to be willing to let your child get roughed up a bit in the process.

Again, if you have serious concerns, talk to the instructor. I'm sure he'll be helpful, and I also have to say that martial arts are really a good thing. If you look in the general forums there are countless posts on the positive attributes they have on people.

It is not unreasonable to not want your young daughter to train in the safest way possible, but martial arts do involve physcial contact.

Make sure you have a competent instructor.... maybe ask other instructors on this board what they think about the punching situation.... but realize that TSD isn't riding a bike, or swimming.... it's fighting