I don't think I believe in forms.

[Mr Pockets]

Quick lesson in physics (I hate to get academic, but I think you'll find it enlightening.)

The longer an impact takes (like falling on a pillow rather than concrete) the less maximum force will hit you at any time. Boxing gloves are padded and greatly lengthen that impact time and make the max force that ever hits you drastically less. That sinking you refer to actually ensures that less of a maximum force ever goes into your head when you get punched.

Also- the law of conservation of momentum states that, obviously, total momentum is conserved. Example 1: boxing gloves, hit with a certain speed and force and all that- into your face and don't bounce off your face at all. (Ignoring energy losses that make sound, heat, etc) all the momentum was transfered into your face. Example two: a bare fist with the same speed and force and all that hits your face and bounces off, the momentum transfer to your face is actually greater, because your face not only absorbs all of that momentum, but pushes back on your fist enough to make it fly back in the opposite direction (negative momentum, because of opposite direction, more momentum total in your face, actually.... Draw a picture, write it out, hopefully you'll see what I'm saying.)

Whatever mass a 16oz glove adds to a punch, the weight of it slowing the punch down alone makes up for it, and it is essentially negligable in comparison to the force of the punch, and not even worth considering if you take into account the fact that the glove is so padded.

If nothing else- take the experience of anyone who has had a bare knuckle fight (sanctioned or otherwise), and compare it to a 16oz glove fight. Why do you think MMA professionals spar with 16oz gloves instead of their tiny, hardly padded MMA gloves, let alone their bare hands? It's to soften the blows they take while practicing.

[JusticeZero]

I am. The people I have spoken to would rather be hit by a bare knuckle than by a 16 oz glove.

Please also note that while the force experienced by the face in the case of the fist rebounding might be greater, that force is at the level of the surface - your bone and skin and facial muscles. Wheras with the gloves transferring the force, the force is delivered at a speed that allows the strike to move the full head. This is similar to the difference between a kick that sets the heavy bag to swinging, and the kick that folds the bag in without swinging it much.

This means that the force is being applied inertially to the BRAIN, rather than simply bouncing back from the SKELETON. My skeleton can take quite a bit of abuse. My brain I would prefer not to.

[Sauzin]

By modern, I mean that you are not constantly in the horse stance. And yes, my instructor does a great job of teaching me the application of forms. I practise my forms a lot, and I enjoy it. But if I were to get into a fight, I would NOT keep my hands at my waist, and I would not fight in the horse stance. I have been taught the forms , I have seen the forms, I have performed the forms, and anyone who has ever been in a physical confrontation will agree, that are hardly applicable (Hope I used that right). And to the person that said you should keep your hands are your waist... that is just rediculous. Fight someone with your hands lower than chin level, see what happens. I will just tell you, they will hit you in the chin, and you will be knocked out. I'd much rather damage the back of my fist than my face.

Mobility is the key to fighting, you cannot keep your head in one place, with your back straight, and your legs firmly planted in a fight. What good is a strong stance if you are being hit? Watch any Vale Tudo fights, do you ever see a horse stance, cat stance, dragon stance, bow and arrow stance? No, and if you do, the person that is in that stance is about to get seriously injured. They keep their hands high, because they know that if they get hit in the face hard, it WILL hurt. You may think your training has made you invincible, but it has not. Hold your hands high and don't stand still. Read some of Bruce Lee's books.

I don't mean to be insulting but it doesn't seem from your paragraph there that you have a very good understanding of kata at all.

Specifically in regards to the two hands on your hip thing, it's an uncommon move in our kata, however we do use it. And it’s a great move. You see when we grab someone or something we bring it to our hips. In other words we chamber when we grab. I don't suppose you've ever seen a fight where someone grabbed someone else did you? How about when they grabbed them and pulled them in low? That's a two handed chamber my friend. How often does a guy get his chin punched after he's grabbed someone like that? Never, if he's doing right.

In regards to a horse stance. When a guy goes in deep for a grapple the defender always does one of two things. He gets his feet the heck out of the way and then often gets thrown down another way, or he takes a very deep stance and fights against the opponent's balance. That's what a horse stance is for. You don't assume a horse stance while you're still exchanging strikes, in most cases that's just plain stupid. You assume it when you need balance and your in close. So why practice blocks and strikes in a horse stance you might ask. Well a lot of blocks and strikes make great grappling moves and throws when you grab something. Also I follow the general principle of grappling to get into a better position to strike some more. Mobility is key in a boxing match or while sparring, but when you've grabbed each other all the hopping, bobbing, and weaving in the world won't do you any good. Being able to assume a strong stance quickly and in the right position is what determines who's hitting the concrete and who's in control.

Kata doesn't teach boxing. Karate fighters don't just stand there and exchange punches. If you think of kata in just striking, punching, and kicking terms, it's not just impractical it's dumb. Karate fighters penetrate, they grab, they throw, they lock down, they break, and they strike a couple of times in the process. Think of this when you watch kata and you just might see something.

[Mr Pockets]

Force is not transmitted- momentum is. Force is the derivative of momentum- and when not padded a much larger force, over a shorter period of time (same momentum) is delevered- to your skull, your brain, everything. The guys you talked to have no idea what they're talking about. Back in the old days boxers used to box bare knuckel, or with tiny little gloves. They added padding to protect the boxers' knuckles first, and their bodies second. Gloves make the fights last longer, because there's less damage being done to everyone. Ask any boxer at all, would you rather take a punch with a 12oz glove or a 16 oz glove, he'll probably laugh at such a silly question. I'm being this adamant because I don't want some poor kid who doesn't know any better coming along and reading this to get completely the wrong idea and believe something that is blatantly false.

[Smitty]

In my opinion, some people look at kata too narrow-mindedly. Katas are not meant to just be locked into a certain movement. Just because a kata has a technique executed from a low stance doesn't mean it has to be done in a low stance.

As far as I can tell, stances are open to change. Part of the thing with katas are to strengthen as well. If you don't look at all the variables, you can't get full value of the katas.

[harleyt26]

I trained for many years with an instructor that taught me many kata and I won several trophys with them.But I could not use them to fight because the instructor could not teach the real applications in them and could not teach me to find my own applications in them.I am now training under some very very knowlegeable instructors that have really opened my eyes.They have shown me things in kata that is beyond description,all I can say is that if you cannot see the value of kata you should find a better instructor.Good kata instructors are out there but they are difficult to find.But even very good instructors cannot teach someone with a closed mind.By the way are you guys actually trying to say it does less damage bare knuckle than with a pound of padding on your hand???

[SevenStar]

By modern, I mean that you are not constantly in the horse stance. And yes, my instructor does a great job of teaching me the application of forms. I practise my forms a lot, and I enjoy it. But if I were to get into a fight, I would NOT keep my hands at my waist, and I would not fight in the horse stance. I have been taught the forms , I have seen the forms, I have performed the forms, and anyone who has ever been in a physical confrontation will agree, that are hardly applicable (Hope I used that right). And to the person that said you should keep your hands are your waist... that is just rediculous. Fight someone with your hands lower than chin level, see what happens. I will just tell you, they will hit you in the chin, and you will be knocked out. I'd much rather damage the back of my fist than my face.

as the saying goes, you fight how you train...

Specifically in regards to the two hands on your hip thing, it's an uncommon move in our kata, however we do use it. And it’s a great move. You see when we grab someone or something we bring it to our hips. In other words we chamber when we grab. I don't suppose you've ever seen a fight where someone grabbed someone else did you? How about when they grabbed them and pulled them in low? That's a two handed chamber my friend. How often does a guy get his chin punched after he's grabbed someone like that? Never, if he's doing right.

In regards to a horse stance. When a guy goes in deep for a grapple the defender always does one of two things. He gets his feet the heck out of the way and then often gets thrown down another way, or he takes a very deep stance and fights against the opponent's balance. That's what a horse stance is for. You don't assume a horse stance while you're still exchanging strikes, in most cases that's just plain stupid. You assume it when you need balance and your in close. So why practice blocks and strikes in a horse stance you might ask. Well a lot of blocks and strikes make great grappling moves and throws when you grab something. Also I follow the general principle of grappling to get into a better position to strike some more. Mobility is key in a boxing match or while sparring, but when you've grabbed each other all the hopping, bobbing, and weaving in the world won't do you any good. Being able to assume a strong stance quickly and in the right position is what determines who's hitting the concrete and who's in control.

I disagree. if you drop into horse to defend a take down, you're gonna hit the ground. ALL stances are transitory. that is the key to mobility. You use them in transition to other positions, to throw, to strike, etc. you don't statically hold them.

Kata doesn't teach boxing. Karate fighters don't just stand there and exchange punches. If you think of kata in just striking, punching, and kicking terms, it's not just impractical it's dumb. Karate fighters penetrate, they grab, they throw, they lock down, they break, and they strike a couple of times in the process. Think of this when you watch kata and you just might see something.

boxers don't just stand there and exchange punches either. Anyone who believes that is has no clue about boxing. As for the grabbing, penetrating, locking, etc. you don't have to train kata to learn that. kata just gives you a means of working it alone, but the most efficient way is through drilling and sparring.

[Sauzin]

as the saying goes, you fight how you train...

Amen.

I disagree. if you drop into horse to defend a take down, you're gonna hit the ground. ALL stances are transitory. that is the key to mobility. You use them in transition to other positions, to throw, to strike, etc. you don't statically hold them.

I can't say I understand where the disagreement is. Yes, you need to be able to move from any stance. But there are moments in a fight when you don't want your stance to move (such as when you are throwing an opponent over it) or you want to be able to control your own movement. Being able to assume a good stance quickly lets you control when what moves. Of course you wouldn’t want to just sit in a horse stance as an opponent moved into a position of control. The idea is you move into your horse stance assuming a position of adequate control. This way you get to decide who goes where and you move from your stance when and how you want to. This is what a horse stance is for. Providing adequate support while getting into a position of control.

I would compare this to a well structured punch. The arm must be aligned, shoulder and elbow down and wrist straight. This way it doesn’t bounce back or crumble when it meets with reciprocal force. For a moment you don’t want it to move a certain direction and you need the stability. This doesn’t mean that it’s static or that you can’t move your arm to the next position. In fact you practice all kinds of transitions from a jab or punch, but still you need to be able to assume the correct position at a moments notice or you will not have the desired effect. A stance is the same way. Still I don’t know if I would call a punch transitional just because you can move from it.

boxers don't just stand there and exchange punches either. Anyone who believes that is has no clue about boxing. As for the grabbing, penetrating, locking, etc. you don't have to train kata to learn that. kata just gives you a means of working it alone, but the most efficient way is through drilling and sparring.

I didn't mean to infer that boxers just stand put and punch each other. They move a lot, but karate and boxing have different goals. As westerners many of us have a tendency to think of karate in boxing terms. Cover, parry, punch, dodge, jab, etc... I think this is a huge and very common mistake to limit one's view of karate and kata to these things.

Drills and sparring are very important. But they teach only specific techniques and specific applications. Which is great if the specific scenario or attack that you practice occurs. Kata teaches a much broader system of defense. It is kind of ironic in my opinion that some people view kata as only good as a solitary practice. In my mind describing it this way neglects the inherent value of the movements and how they are taught using kata. It also neglects the process of practicing and interpreting bunkai as you learn more about each aspect of your kata. Really at face value this description seems to be very misleading. But in the end you are right. The practice of kata is solitary in its very nature, but so is a fight. In any struggle, it's you that either does or does not do what needs to be done. Kata and fighting are the same. Your fight is the only one that needs be won.

[Mr Pockets]

You know, it still seems to me that, even if you learned all the applications of all the movements of a kata, it's still a waste of time in that it'd still be more effecient to just learn the moves to begin with. Punch this way, kick this way, block this way... there's only so much to do and so many ways to do it, why pussyfoot around and learn it the long way?

[granmasterchen]

There is much to be learned from kata. When I started out, the first five years or so, up to black belt, I found kata to be a waste of time and I hated it.....but later I found out that there was much to be gathered from the katas that I had done for years. Breathing, helping to build power, it added to speed, it actually helped in sparring eventually and even in real fights. You have to tear those katas apart and look at them and study each section to find the hidden meanings held inside. If you practice your kata true and hard you should be sweating and breathing hard after just one kata, no matter what shape you are in. I used to be able to do katas for hours, but then I found how to properly do them with power and intensity and one would be enough to wear me out. Each block and strike must be exectuded as if you were in a real fight and your life depended on that technique working.

Did you know that when karate first started out, they only taught kata. Kata was the were all the lessons were given. Each kata held the techniques needed for that level, and mastery was shown by how a person performed their kata. Believe me, if you stay true to your martial arts training, in time (hopefully) you will find just how important kata really is. Good luck to you in your journey and may you go far.