I don't think I believe in forms.

[Mr Pockets]

Lots of points made allready... so here's a different one: Of all the professional fighters in the world, thai boxers in Thailand, Boxers, UFC and Pride fighters... the serious guys (and if you want to get in a debate about their skill of fighting not being the same as some karatekas who doesn't compete for different scenerios, save it), I can't think of any who have katas in their training routine. Fact is, there are more effective ways of training; more useful things on which to spend their time.

There are only so many ways to punch, kick, and whatever someone- and only a handful of those ways are actually useful. You can practice those thigns on focus pads, heavy bags, shadow boxing, sparring... all of which are more efficient learning methods than doing a kata. (Someone will probably say that's just my opinion- to which I reply read my above statements.) The same goes for conditioning the body. Kata today are obsolete, and retaining them is fine if you want to, nothign wrong with posterity, but don't expect to learn how to fight with them like you would elsewhere.

[JusticeZero]

I don't train to fight like a prizefighter, I don't base my fighting on submissions and bludgeoning my opponent down. I train with movements where I do things like get my opponent's thigh locked between my leg while elbowing them, then suddenly throw my whole weight at the ground to leverage their knee sideways with the gravity. The taiji guys I worked with study to catch someone's arm and step into an elbow break. Those aren't things that show up much in prizefighting, which is much like sparring, a deceptively unrealistic drill. I can walk through those type of movements in training, but I have to practice them in full too so I can get the dynamics right. I can't really use a live training partner for such an attack.

[P.A.L]

jarrettmeyer, very good, keep it up.

Kata is just one way of practicing a martial art, systems without kata has to use names or numbers for techniques, then they practice them again and again, systems with forms normaly don't do this they teach basic techniques and use forms for mastery of more complicated techniques. there is no way someone tell this one is better than the other one.

for those of you who think UFC or pride(MMA) is the end of MA, i have to tell you ,they are good where there are some rules but there is no rule when your life is in danger, here is the place where real MA comes in, real karate is not about body shot or KO , it's about puting opponents eyes in their hand in a second and kata has been a big part of it.

[AnonymousOne]

I can't think of any who have katas in their training routine. Fact is, there are more effective ways of training; more useful things on which to spend their time.

Bas Rutten practises Kata

[Uechi Kid]

Don't give up on kata. The moves in kata are the blue print to defending your self on the street. Sparring is the "SPORT" aspect of karate.

[SevenStar]

I can't think of any who have katas in their training routine. Fact is, there are more effective ways of training; more useful things on which to spend their time.

Bas Rutten practises Kata

yeah, but I'm willing to bet he's the only one... and I'm curious as to how much of his training actually comprises of it. My guess is not much - he probably subs it for shadowboxing or interval anaerobic training.

there are some lesser known TMA who compete, like sami berik who likely trains forms. Once again though, I bet he spends more time on application.

[SevenStar]

I don't train to fight like a prizefighter, I don't base my fighting on submissions and bludgeoning my opponent down. I train with movements where I do things like get my opponent's thigh locked between my leg while elbowing them, then suddenly throw my whole weight at the ground to leverage their knee sideways with the gravity. The taiji guys I worked with study to catch someone's arm and step into an elbow break. Those aren't things that show up much in prizefighting, which is much like sparring, a deceptively unrealistic drill. I can walk through those type of movements in training, but I have to practice them in full too so I can get the dynamics right. I can't really use a live training partner for such an attack.

but you can't practice it live - that's the problem. My original thai coach had some traditional thai training. I know a thai elbow form, traditional thai applications, etc. We train them in class on occasion, as my buddy - the other instructor (there are three of us) - loves the traditional stuff. We can't practice it full speed though, and coincidentally, none of us have ever used any of it in fights.

[JusticeZero]

Well, I don't consider slowly clubbing an attacker to be very effective. I generally think of a kick or punch as an "opener" or a "setup", but it's nothing I could picture basing a fight around. I'd rather do something effective instead that ends with the attacker being dropped on the ground and in some way having a capacity to continue to fight disabled, rather than just randomly clubbing them with my foot or hand as they remain in their offensive structure and a continuing threat.

[Oopgrub]

By modern, I mean that you are not constantly in the horse stance. And yes, my instructor does a great job of teaching me the application of forms. I practise my forms a lot, and I enjoy it. But if I were to get into a fight, I would NOT keep my hands at my waist, and I would not fight in the horse stance. I have been taught the forms , I have seen the forms, I have performed the forms, and anyone who has ever been in a physical confrontation will agree, that are hardly applicable (Hope I used that right). And to the person that said you should keep your hands are your waist... that is just rediculous. Fight someone with your hands lower than chin level, see what happens. I will just tell you, they will hit you in the chin, and you will be knocked out. I'd much rather damage the back of my fist than my face.

Mobility is the key to fighting, you cannot keep your head in one place, with your back straight, and your legs firmly planted in a fight. What good is a strong stance if you are being hit? Watch any Vale Tudo fights, do you ever see a horse stance, cat stance, dragon stance, bow and arrow stance? No, and if you do, the person that is in that stance is about to get seriously injured. They keep their hands high, because they know that if they get hit in the face hard, it WILL hurt. You may think your training has made you invincible, but it has not. Hold your hands high and don't stand still. Read some of Bruce Lee's books.

[JusticeZero]

Gloves allow a boxer to use full power without risking injuring their own hand, and to strike more often to the head. It also adds more mass to the punch; furthermore, the texture of the glove allows the force of the blow to sink into the target fully, rather than rebounding back into the striker's hand.

What they DO do is make the strikes look less "bloody", and make the match much more "exciting" because more strikes fly and a knockout (which is, by definition, brain damage) is far more likely. It lets the boxer haul off with strikes that would shatter the bones of their hand without fear for themself, hit with extra mass, and put the full force of the impact into the soft tissue of the target's head.