I don't think I believe in forms.

[Bleeding Lion]

granmasterchen:

very well said.

i sincerely think that if you do not believe in kata then your instructor does not properly teaches it or you do not properly learn it.

Most people who criticize kata do them as if it is just a collection of moves, they dont put themselves in the situations the kata requires you to in order to gain knowledge from it. When you do a kata as if it is just a series of movements, with no insight, no power, no focus, it is not a kata. It is a dance. And sure unless you do capoeira, you wont learn much from a dance.

When I do a kata like seyunchin kata twice, im already sweating and breathing heavily while other students, even higher belts, dont break a sweat. You might think im out of shape, but im in a much better shape than the students im refering to.

Sometimes people do katas but dont even fully understand the techniques in the katas. In my art, shoreishobukan goju ryu, hookiyu kata#1, which is the first one you learn, has much more than a hundred hidden techniques. You can guess higher katas are even deeper. If you cant give me two applications for every move you're doing in the kata, dont criticize it as you have not learned it yet. If i really wanted to, I could take this whole summer and "learn" just about all the katas in my art up to 4th dan. Now, by "learning" i mean just emulating my senseis move. Guess what, it will do no good because this is not what kata is about (i.e. just doing a bunch of moves).

Just a question, why do you think there is a big difference between, say a 1-year student doing a given kata and the same student doing the same kata 2 years later? What has the student learn over that 2-year period (if dont properly of course)?

[SevenStar]

I can't say I understand where the disagreement is. Yes, you need to be able to move from any stance. But there are moments in a fight when you don't want your stance to move (such as when you are throwing an opponent over it) or you want to be able to control your own movement. Being able to assume a good stance quickly lets you control when what moves. Of course you wouldn’t want to just sit in a horse stance as an opponent moved into a position of control. The idea is you move into your horse stance assuming a position of adequate control. This way you get to decide who goes where and you move from your stance when and how you want to. This is what a horse stance is for. Providing adequate support while getting into a position of control.

I actually think we agree here. What I was disagreeing with was takedown defense. I think dropping into a horse is a poor takedown defense.

When a guy goes in deep for a grapple the defender always does one of two things. He gets his feet the heck out of the way and then often gets thrown down another way, or he takes a very deep stance and fights against the opponent's balance. That's what a horse stance is for.

^ that is what I disagree with.

I didn't mean to infer that boxers just stand put and punch each other. They move a lot, but karate and boxing have different goals. As westerners many of us have a tendency to think of karate in boxing terms. Cover, parry, punch, dodge, jab, etc... I think this is a huge and very common mistake to limit one's view of karate and kata to these things.

gotcha. from that perspective, I agree with you.

Drills and sparring are very important. But they teach only specific techniques and specific applications. Which is great if the specific scenario or attack that you practice occurs. Kata teaches a much broader system of defense. It is kind of ironic in my opinion that some people view kata as only good as a solitary practice. In my mind describing it this way neglects the inherent value of the movements and how they are taught using kata. It also neglects the process of practicing and interpreting bunkai as you learn more about each aspect of your kata.

and when you work bunkai with a partner, what are you doing? Drilling. Drilling isn't limited at all, nor is sparring. IMO it is these two things that will help you to understand kata.

[SevenStar]

There is much to be learned from kata. When I started out, the first five years or so, up to black belt, I found kata to be a waste of time and I hated it.....but later I found out that there was much to be gathered from the katas that I had done for years. Breathing, helping to build power, it added to speed, it actually helped in sparring eventually and even in real fights. You have to tear those katas apart and look at them and study each section to find the hidden meanings held inside. If you practice your kata true and hard you should be sweating and breathing hard after just one kata, no matter what shape you are in. I used to be able to do katas for hours, but then I found how to properly do them with power and intensity and one would be enough to wear me out. Each block and strike must be exectuded as if you were in a real fight and your life depended on that technique working.

that is a good post. However, I think what pockets is getting at is that all of the things you mentioned above are things I do in thai boxing - without kata. you practice your kata hard and sweat - I do that with bag work. or with padwork. or with sparring. you say execute each block and strike as if you were in a real fight - we do that in padwork, bagwork, shadowboxing and sparring. those things will also help work our breath control and improve our speed, as you pointed out kata will do. Plus, there is the added benefit of impact training and partner work from the outset - learning is faster.

In the end, we are trying to accomplish the same things, but have a different method of doing so.

Did you know that when karate first started out, they only taught kata. Kata was the were all the lessons were given. Each kata held the techniques needed for that level, and mastery was shown by how a person performed their kata. Believe me, if you stay true to your martial arts training, in time (hopefully) you will find just how important kata really is. Good luck to you in your journey and may you go far.

jujutsu was the same way. I think that is the big reason the judoka mauled them in competition -- the jujutsu guys did not spar. I do believe that kata is important in a traditional style, but I think that it's only part of the equation.

[Sauzin]

...I think dropping into a horse is a poor takedown defense.

When a guy goes in deep for a grapple the defender always does one of two things. He gets his feet the heck out of the way and then often gets thrown down another way, or he takes a very deep stance and fights against the opponent's balance. That's what a horse stance is for.

^ that is what I disagree with.

Just standing in a horse stance as someone goes to take you down is a poor take down defense. However dropping into a horse stance adjusted slightly to the side and at an angle while circling under a shooters arm to an armbar position to flip him over or while taking his head or while striking an opportune target (spine, opponent’s leg, etc) or while grabbing his belt, or while getting behind one of his legs are all examples of good take down defenses. The horse stance, in the correct position and used at the right time, buys you the time and stability you need counter in many positions. Of course other deep stances work as well, depending on what you are doing, what he is doing, and what angles they are being done at.

and when you work bunkai with a partner, what are you doing? Drilling. Drilling isn't limited at all, nor is sparring. IMO it is these two things that will help you to understand kata.

They all have limitations. Sparring has limitations offered by rules and your opponent. That's why it is so important to change the rules every once in a while and spar different people. Even still you work with limitations. Even the slightest rule in sparring changes the field severely. Just having a person in front of you can limit the depth and vision one can gain into different applications of a technique because you have a tendency to think in specifics. Fighting can be any situation and it is impossible anticipate and train for all of them in sparring and paired training drills. That's the problem with doing just drills. People who do this get very myopic. Punch, grab, move, throw, punch, grab, move, throw. In kata you perform movements that can have many meanings. The punch might be the throw and the grab might be the strike, and the move might get you off line. It depends on where the opponent is and what he is doing. Kata trains movement, this leaves the application as broad as possible so that it works one way or another. Drills don't do this. Not by themselves anyway.

I agree that drills and sparring are important to help understand kata. But kata is still what teaches the subject matter it's just a question of how you use it to teach. Break it down, repetitively practice, visualize different scenarios, work different paces, apply it against different situations, whichever. It's still all about the kata in karate.

[Ryute23]

In Karate your fighting timing and strikes are developed from the kata. the techniques are like the letters in the alphabet, by themselves there is not much value, but once you begin to put pieces together and combine then to make words , sentences etc, your growth is limitless

[SevenStar]

i don't think you can adequately develop "fighting timing" from solo kata alone. you can work YOUR OWN timing - when you throw strikes, move, etc. But not your response time to the incoming attack. This is where drilling comes in.

[Mr Pockets]

that is a good post. However, I think what pockets is getting at is that all of the things you mentioned above are things I do in thai boxing - without kata. you practice your kata hard and sweat - I do that with bag work. or with padwork. or with sparring. you say execute each block and strike as if you were in a real fight - we do that in padwork, bagwork, shadowboxing and sparring. those things will also help work our breath control and improve our speed, as you pointed out kata will do. Plus, there is the added benefit of impact training and partner work from the outset - learning is faster.

In the end, we are trying to accomplish the same things, but have a different method of doing so.

Precisely.