I don't think I believe in forms.

[Sauzin]

I think there might be a reason for such a large difference in how people view kata. I don't want to be disrespectful or insulting but fact is a lot of the kata out there is shallow. And if someone where to see such an example for kata I could completely understand why they would think that kata has limited combat effectiveness.

What do I mean by shallow kata? Well when someone decides to teach a kata who doesn't understand how kata is applied and interpreted, a lot is lost. If a kata goes through say 2 or more transitions between the unknowing it gets to a point where there really isn't much more to it then a block here, a punch there, and maybe something fancy in-between that you shouldn't ever use in a real fight because "that's not what kata is for". I mean think about it. Considering the masses of people who train in some kind of "karate" be it Okinawan, Japanese, or Korean and considering how long it has existed in the modern age where a promotion means a quick buck without any means of quality control how could degradation not happen? In fact it happens a lot. I would go so far as to say that the majority of kata out there has suffered some kind of degradation or "watering down" effect.

So you’ve got this pool of kata that unless you know a lot about kata already you have no way of judging the difference between the real thing and the imitation. Why should anyone be expected to see value? But obviously there is something because there are a lot of awfully good fighters out there who swear by it. So what’s the answer? Before you give your final judgment on the value of kata, make sure you are making your judgment based on the real thing.

So the all important question becomes how do I know if I’m being taught is the real thing? The answer isn't very simple but there are some key indicators or questions that you should ask the guy teaching you that might help:

Question: How many teachers are between me the origininator of the kata and what where their motivations?

Reason: If you can't trace your lineage then you don't know what you are getting for kata. Knowing your teachers means you know the quality of the material. And if there is no lineage, then there is no kata.

Question: Can the guy teaching me the kata show me a street application for every move in it?

Reason: If the guy teaching you doesn't know then the guy teaching him might not have known and you can be sure that the kata is missing something.

Question: Find the most basic move in a kata. How many applications can your teacher show you for this movement?

Reason: Sometimes this means pestering the teacher a bit but it should give you a good idea of the depth of the kata he teaches. While the class constraints might stop him at 3 or 4 applications he should be capable of showing you dozens.

Question: Does he ever use any of the following phrases in class?

"Kata is primarily for promotions not for defense."

"Never use kata while sparring."

"I made up this kata when..."

"I changed this kata because..."

"I am better then my teacher because..."

"This kata is primarily for competitions."

Reason: If he does then he isn't the guy you want to rely on for passing a kata on to you accurately.

I think the biggest difference between those who think kata has real combat value and those that don’t is the source of the kata they are making their judgments on. If all else fails and you still don’t see it’s value get a larger sample. Don’t just stop at one dojo and condemn all kata. You’d be surprised the difference the teacher and the quality of the kata he teaches can make.

[SevenStar]

Read my old article on this.

Kata is the base! Sparring and fighting are differant.... Kata builds set reflexes that will alway help when in troulble.

When you forget the past you are doomed to repeat it we need to keep the traditional ties.

I disagree that it will ALWAYS help. IMO, sparring is the other half to kata. If you don't work your techniques against resistance, you're gonna be hard pressed to do so when the chips are down. As you said, kata is the base - that base however, does not include application. this is where sparring comes in.

[Oopgrub]

I've read a lot of Bruce Lee's books, so I'm pretty opinionated. And don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing on forms, in fact, I love working on my forms. I was just hoping we could discuss thoughts on forms.

[AnonymousOne]

Kata has all the components necessary to prepare one for any self defense situation:

Skill

Speed

Timing

Power

Focus

Aerobic endurance

Anaerobic endurance

Co-ordination

Balance

Agility

Strength

Visualisation inculcation

Application

Thats just off the top of my head.

However I personally believe it takes years of being in the MA to really appreciate what Kata is about.

[jarrettmeyer]

However I personally believe it takes years of being in the MA to really appreciate what Kata is about.

I really think that this is key here. I think that kata can and will do all those good things for self defense if you practice rigorously, have a great Sensai, practice bunkai, develop new bunkai, and the legion of other conditionals that have placed in this post. If you're missing out on these conditionals, then you're done. Kata probably won't be the way for you.

That takes a lot of time and a lot of effort during that time.

I think that there are other ideologies that can get you to a good, or even great, level of self-defense skill much faster than that. Studying Bruce Lee's concepts is one of them. Studying some of the ideas in Muay Thai is one of them.

Kata was never intended to be the quick way. Who was it who had his students work and develop Sanchin for a year? One kata? Countless times a day? For a year?

The student who has learned good kata and good application has a better base on which to grow. I didn't say that this student is better than a student who doesn't learn kata, but that he has the potential of being better. There's still lots that this student needs to do. Kata is not the end-all-be-all of self-defense. If you do not augment kata with supplemental self-defense training, then what good is that foundation?

-jm

[AnonymousOne]

Kata is not the end-all-be-all of self-defense. If you do not augment kata with supplemental self-defense training, then what good is that foundation?

How do you know? How long have you been training?

Which and how many Kata have you totally mastered (in the true sense of the word)?

[JusticeZero]

Why should I study Bruce's concepts? There's nothing new in them. Classical stylists have been saying that stuff for quite awhile. It's just that you can't be expected to 'transcend style' if you don't have a style to begin with.

[jarrettmeyer]

How do you know? How long have you been training?

I don't know. 6 months.

Which and how many Kata have you totally mastered (in the true sense of the word)?

None.

All of the above comments were my opinion, and I reserve the right to change my opinion at any time. Personally, I think that kata is great. I love the practice. Anyone who says kata is boring isn't working at it. I'm dripping with sweat after the second pinan. As an instructional tool, there is nothing superior to really learning kata.

I just very much agree with the idea placed in an earlier post. He used writers, but I understand music better, so I'll adapt. The best musicians are very thoroughly educated on the works of their predecessors. Mozart learned by listening to all of his musical predecessors, like Bach, Handel, and Hayden. Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, and Mahler wrote many works in homage to Mozart, expanding on Mozart's accomplishments.

I think kata are like that, too. Yes, we want to learn and perfect the works of others. We want to understand the meaning in their movements. Eventually, we want to create. Most of the time, we're not prepared to create. We are still too immature for what we create to become really meaningful. Once in a while, an Aaron Copeland emerges, and a whole new genre can be defined by his work. But people like that are few and far between.

-jm[/url]

[Meguro]

jarrettmeyer, for the few months you've been studying martial arts, I think you have a good grasp of what kata is all about. I like your musical analogy. If I may take it further, practicing kata is like practicing scales, chords, and playing other composer's work. Repeated practice will give you muscle memory and a fluidity. However facility with scales and chords doesn't make you a great musician, just as sole practice of kata does not a karate master make.

Fighting and developing self defense ability are like jamming with a jazz ensemble. You've got to be able to react to the moment, deal with the spontaneity and surprise. You can't develop this ability in isolation. The limitation of kata is it's a solo act.

[SevenStar]

Kata has all the components necessary to prepare one for any self defense situation:

Skill

Speed

Timing

Power

Focus

Aerobic endurance

Anaerobic endurance

Co-ordination

Balance

Agility

Strength

Visualisation inculcation

Application

Thats just off the top of my head.

However I personally believe it takes years of being in the MA to really appreciate what Kata is about.

I think I'd say application theory - not necessarily application. Application is DOING it - against someone else. there is throwing in kata, but you're not gonna find many karateka who can throw as good as a judoka. Why?because the actual doing of the application isn't there.

a few of the other things you mentioned also fall into this category - like timing. you can learn self timing, but not application timing. doing kata isn't actively helping you to judge an attacker, as you aren't actually facing one.

this is where bunkai, active drilling and sparring come into play. kata is only part of the whole, IMO.