Whats the REAL deal with martial arts today?

[SubGrappler]

To Subgrappler,

We've all seen strikers taken out by BJJ guys, does that mean striking is overestimated and that BJJ techniques are superior for the street?

If you're talking about two fighters trained in one particular style, the first MMA events proved that grapplers hold the edge in this particular fight. In the world of MMA, neither is particularly superior to the other.

Then what about today's fights which are often concluded with hand striking techniques, does that mean BJJ suddenly has no value and is overestimated? Or what about the fact that fighters such as Nam Phan, Maurice Smith, and others have knocked out or forced opponents to concede with their kicks, should I then conclude that kicking is more important than hand skills? Perhaps I should conclude that wrestling is the supreme martial art since so many of today's fighters have trained in or come from a wrestling background.

Today's fights are concluded with hand techniques AS WELL AS kicks, knees, wrestling, and submission techniques. The fact of the matter is though that being able to throw your hands is much more important than learning how to kick (otherwise TKD would be tearing up the charts). Dont assume that just because the fighters you mentioned are particularly good with kicks (I cant believe you didnt mention CroCop) this means they substituted it for their punching skills. Their kicking skills complimented their hand skills, which allowed them to get their victories.

As far as wrestling goes, its hard to beat an experienced wrestler regardless of what styles you study. Theres no doubt it is one of the best- whether or not it IS the best will be debated for a long time.

You cannot reach a general conclusion, at least not an accurate one, based on a few examples. Boxing is great but merely because Belfort used it to defeat Hess doesn't mean that boxing is superior. It just shows that relying heavily on eye gouges and biting may not be enough, at least not against Belfort. But most individuals that you're likely to encounter do not have Belfort's boxing skills and are not trained, professional fighters.

Thats the point Im getting at. Im not saying that eye gouging and biting dont have a place in a fight- they certainly do, but WAY too many people overestimate how much of a place they have. Do you have any idea how many people believe they could end a fight immediately, even against a professional mixed martial artist, by simply eye gouging or biting? Its a bit more difficult than that.

Personally, I was not aware that Nakai was permanently blinded from his fight with Gordeau as you stated. But if he was, then it seems that Nakai got the worst of it, even if he won the tournament. I'd much rather have a broken ankle (which will heal) than be permanently blinded. And since we're discussing eye gouges, Tank Abbott also used an eye gouge on an opponent in an early UFC (while he was winning). It made his opponent want to tap out of the fight much more quickly than he would have otherwise.

You're forgetting one thing about the Nakai Gordeau fight- this is supposed to emulate real combat. In this particular situation, Gordeau ignored the rules and Nakai had to suffer because of it. In a real life situation, Gordeau gets the worst of it, because he doesnt just get a broken ankle- Nakai breaks his leg, and proceeds to choke him to death, or beat him to death.

Tank also tried fish hooking against Oleg Taktarov in UFC 6, and the match ended up with him getting choked out. While his eye gouges may of helped him during his fight, was it that or his slugging/wrestling skills that allowed him to get the upper edge and win the fight?

[McBeth]

Karate25 - Thanks for your post. From the site you listed, the Army program does appear to be BJJ based.

However, I still find it odd and think it is due to the popularity of MMA and good marketing on the part of the BJJ followers. I just do not see the likelihood of an unarmed, mono-a-mono ground fight scenario arising in a military situation for a general soldier, at least not enough to be make it the focus of a combatives program. Maybe a part but making it the focus seems a bit odd.

Nonetheless, as stated in my earlier post I do think the arts listed in the combatives program are good for conditioning, body mechanics, self-confidence, psychological training, and teaching aggressiveness which are all useful to a soldier, both past and present.

[McBeth]

To Subgrappler - Again you are jumping to respond to specific statements and missing the whole intent of my post. My last post was directed as a criticism of your post, which implied that dirty tactics were of limited value. All of those rhetorical questions were merely included to show you that you cannot reach a general conclusion based off of a few examples.

Here's a statement you posted:

His fight with Andy Anderson is a good example of this. While he defeats Andy Anderson, he is pummeled into a coma induced state when he fights Vitor Belfort, showing that boxing skills were far more important during the fight than attempting to gouge out someone's eyes.

All this shows is that dirty tactics may not be enough... at least not against Belfort. But I've pulled such tactics off many times in fights. Most people you will fight will not be as good at boxing as Belfort and will likely never be a professional, trained fighter. (I am merely repeating my prior post here).

You also stated:

Today's fights are concluded with hand techniques AS WELL AS kicks, knees, wrestling, and submission techniques.

You are merely proving my point here. All of these techniques are useful and in my opinion, none of them lack value or are over-rated techniques. This goes for dirty tactics as well. They all work! But you seem to be isolating one set of tactics and implying that they lack value. That makes no sense. I can also give examples where boxing failed or kicking techniques failed or kneeing failed or submissions failed. But that doesn't mean they are without value or overestimated techniques to employ or learn. But if I follow your reasoning that should be my conclusion. All of these techniques would be overrated.

The fact of the matter is though that being able to throw your hands is much more important than learning how to kick (otherwise TKD would be tearing up the charts). Dont assume that just because the fighters you mentioned are particularly good with kicks (I cant believe you didnt mention CroCop) this means they substituted it for their punching skills. Their kicking skills complimented their hand skills, which allowed them to get their victories.

This is irrelevant to our discussion. We are not comparing kicks to hand techniques, and I have not assumed anything. No one who's been in real fights would disagree with your statement above. If you are responding to my earlier rhetorical question on kicking, then please read my post again. You completely missed the intent of my post.

As far as wrestling goes, its hard to beat an experienced wrestler regardless of what styles you study. Theres no doubt it is one of the best- whether or not it IS the best will be debated for a long time.

Irrelevant to our discussion. Again, please read my prior post. You seem to be jumping to respond rather than trying to understand what it is I am trying to state.

I would add here that I agree wrestling is a great sport/art. And it can be hard to beat a good wrestler IF the wrestler has actual fighting experience or training like the fighters in the MMA or is fighting an inexperienced or incompetent person. But I've seen state champions and even collegiate wrestlers beaten up very bad (i.e. hospitalized) by some tough brawlers. From the fights I witnessed I wouldn't call these brawlers martial artists and there was no evidence of them having studied a grappling style based on what occurred in these fights. And by the way, in 3 of the 4 fights I witnessed against these wrestlers, the brawlers used dirty tactics to aid them in defeating their opponent. The 4th brawler knocked the wrestler down with two successive headbutt then gave him a good shoeshine until the cops were called. In addition, only 2 of the fights actually went to the ground, though the wrestlers did try takedowns in all cases. One fight I particularly remember, the wrestler penetrated for a double leg. He did get the takedown but shortly after the two men hit the pavement, the brawler (on the bottom) bit into the guy's neck and did not let go. The wrestler was so desperate that he even tried an eye gouge, but the brawler was guarding and would not let go and began hitting the man's occipital. All I recall is that there was a lot of blood and the wrestler eventually passed out (I assume from blood loss). This isn't to say the brawler wasn't injured. He was beat up pretty bad too, but in the end he was the guy standing and all of the blood covering his body and shirt was his opponent's. Last I heard, the brawler was arrested and had to serve some time in county jail.

Thats the point Im getting at. Im not saying that eye gouging and biting dont have a place in a fight- they certainly do, but WAY too many people overestimate how much of a place they have. Do you have any idea how many people believe they could end a fight immediately, even against a professional mixed martial artist, by simply eye gouging or biting? Its a bit more difficult than that.

No disagreement here. But that is not how your initial post came off. Considering how nearly all of your examples showed how dirty tactics failed to secure a victory, I presumed you were stating that dirty tactics lacked value.

But again, the chances of meeting a professional MMA fighter in a street confrontation is small. It may happen, but not as likely as meeting a guy who's just a jerk but relatively inexperienced in fighting. And given the odds of NOT meeting a professional fighter (BJJ, MMA, Boxing, Muay Thai, etc) in a real fight I still state that dirty tactics are not overestimated techniques. You have to remember that guys on this board who believe in dirty tactics likely also train in some martial art. So they are not oblivious to boxing, muay Thai, or other arts. They probably train in these arts as well and are adding dirty fighting into their repertoire. So these guys may be able to truly end a fight with biting, eye gouging, or similar techniques. I've done it many times myself. I've also had attempts made against me and it's taken me off guard as well. I'm fortunate I did not suffer permanent injuries.

You're forgetting one thing about the Nakai Gordeau fight- this is supposed to emulate real combat.

The key word here is "supposed to emulate". The truth is while it is the closest style of fighting legally permitted, no modern NHB fight will emulate the full range of possibilities that could arise in a real confrontation.

In this particular situation, Gordeau ignored the rules and Nakai had to suffer because of it. In a real life situation, Gordeau gets the worst of it, because he doesnt just get a broken ankle- Nakai breaks his leg, and proceeds to choke him to death, or beat him to death.

Two points to make here: First, your illustration only shows that Nakai is a better fighter not that the dirty tactics are without merit. What your illustration shows is that Gordeau is not good enough to pull off or rely on eye gouges or biting to win fights. That is, he needs to be a better fighter. But imagine if a good fighter like Couture or Liddell employed the same dirty tactics in a fight. Then you would see a lot more successes with such techniques.

Second, most fights are stopped before life threatening damage occurs. Most people do not want to go to prison and most fights are broken up before the chance of death occurs (though it can and does happen). So it is much MORE likely that Nakai would be blinded and Gordeau left with a broken ankle and probably arrested. But Nakai would probably end up suing Gordeau for permanent injuries, in which case Gordeau may get the worst of it after the lawyers get through with him. In any case, in a real scenario, there's a greater chance that Nakai would've gotten the worst of it when the fight ended.

Tank also tried fish hooking against Oleg Taktarov in UFC 6, and the match ended up with him getting choked out.

Again, same thing. It isn't the technique that is without merit, but the fighter is not good enough to pull off the technique. Tank is a good brawler but lacks conditioning. He also lost to Maurice Smith when his thigh was getting pounded with Thai kicks, but I would not conclude that boxing is overrated because it. Tank is a tough guy and the fact that he would try fish hooking or eye gouging shows that it has worked for him.

A technique is only as good as the fighter. That's why you cannot evaluate the merit of a technique based on a few examples.

I think I am repeating myself again and again, so I will end my post here.

[SubGrappler]

It seems as if we're picking each others posts apart, while at the same time are somewhat in agreement about the initial subject:

Eye gouges, Biting, and groin shots are not the fight enders many people think they are, but can be of use in a real fight.

[Adonis]

McBeth, what you stated as to why it would be good is the main point of the combatives. You will find most battle field Scenerio's. H2H is rare. Combatives is in its infacy. Several reason why ground grappling is taught first.

1. Easy to teach and learn.

2. Competitive edge to it to spur on further training.

3. Regulating safety but still test the moves with a resiting partner SAFELY. Alot of striking can esculate and I believe get hurt more then in a ground fighting stage. There for making the soldier ineffective to do there job. Another issue where past programs have failed.

4. Ultimate idea of a soldier in combatives is to be able to function in scenerio training to flow to ranges from weapons to striking to grappling making a more well rounded soldier.

5. Soldier rarely in combat would be with out another person with them a "battle buddy" as the Army calls them. One of the tenants in the combatives program isn't which person is in the guard will win the h2h engagement but who's buddy comes in first with a gun.

Next is there basic fight stratgey is three parts. 1. Close the Distance 2. Gain dominate postion 3. Finish the fight. This gives the mind set to engage the enemy. Goes back to the saying I Mentioned in one of my earlier posts. A soldier not willing to go through the door with you is not a real warrior.

So focusing on that mentality is important. Combatives helps with that mind set. THere are other many instances it can be used. Especially since alot of peace keeping missions are involved. As well as guarding prisoners or even here in the states, sub duing a drunk Army buddy or MP subdoing a some one who is resistaing arrest.

There is many factors that come into play why the program exist. The main idea of the program is to develop the warrior mind set. As well as have a more mixed martial art based program that is designed safely so soldiers can still perform there jobs. A hurt soldier is worthless soldier because he can't function.

I hope this clears things up. I don't like the idea of going to the ground in a street fight or battle field scenerio. IF it happens least I am prepared but important aspects is the mind set.

Wars are not one by H2H combat. But are won by what it takes to be a good H2H fighter.

[McBeth]

It seems as if we're picking each others posts apart, while at the same time are somewhat in agreement about the initial subject:

Eye gouges, Biting, and groin shots are not the fight enders many people think they are, but can be of use in a real fight.

No! I'm saying that dirty tactics can be the fight enders that many people think. But it isn't the technique that should be the focus of the discussion. It should be the individual and his/her skill level.

Let me illustrate my point further: Gordeau couldn't beat his opponents relying on eye gouges and biting. Now if he relied on boxing and kickboxing would that have suddenly given him the "power" to defeat his opponents? I don't think so. He was not skilled enough as a fighter. So he would've likely lost regardless, in my opinion. But if we now take a skilled fighter such as Rickson Gracie or Randy Couture and put one of them up against an opponent, dirty tactics can be very effective. In fact, it is my opinion that their fights would end much quicker.

Now don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that dirty tactics are enough to win fights. But I am definitely stating that they are not overrated techniques as a few on this forum have openly stated. Assuming all things were equal, I'd be much more wary of an opponent who was attempting to bite my throat, eye gouge, or groin grab than if he merely tried to slug away at me.

In addition, dirty techniques make it easier to set up an opponent for a whole host of other techniques, including submissions. It's much easier to force a desired reaction out of an opponent this way since nearly everyone (trained or untrained) reacts the same when someone is trying to rip out their eyeball or drive a thumb through the throat. The reactions are predictable, but the fighter still needs to know what to do once that reaction occurs and be good enough to captialize on the reaction. If he isn't good enough, then he may just anger his opponent even more and lose the fight anyway.

Anyway, I think this discussion is done.

[McBeth]

I don't like the idea of going to the ground in a street fight or battle field scenerio. IF it happens least I am prepared but important aspects is the mind set.

Wars are not one by H2H combat. But are won by what it takes to be a good H2H fighter.

Thanks for your posts. Informative. And from your post above I'm glad to know that you have a sensible head on your shoulders. It is not a good idea to willfully go to the ground in true street fight, and never on the battlefield. But the training you're getting still sounds useful.

Heck! At least your training may help you in a bar fight in some Third World country

[Adonis]

actually speaking of that it has. Mostly against another drunk Soldier in a bar in korea. LOL! SO it does work. IT would be bad if all I trained in was leathal techniques and killed the guy. I would hate to be at fort leavenworth, kansas. thats the prisons located for those in the military.

[White Warlock]

Bah! Missed this thread from the onset. Now i'm going to have to read all 8 friggin' pages in one shot.