Whats the REAL deal with martial arts today?

[McBeth]

To Subgrappler,

We've all seen strikers taken out by BJJ guys, does that mean striking is overestimated and that BJJ techniques are superior for the street?

Then what about today's fights which are often concluded with hand striking techniques, does that mean BJJ suddenly has no value and is overestimated? Or what about the fact that fighters such as Nam Phan, Maurice Smith, and others have knocked out or forced opponents to concede with their kicks, should I then conclude that kicking is more important than hand skills? Perhaps I should conclude that wrestling is the supreme martial art since so many of today's fighters have trained in or come from a wrestling background.

You cannot reach a general conclusion, at least not an accurate one, based on a few examples. Boxing is great but merely because Belfort used it to defeat Hess doesn't mean that boxing is superior. It just shows that relying heavily on eye gouges and biting may not be enough, at least not against Belfort. But most individuals that you're likely to encounter do not have Belfort's boxing skills and are not trained, professional fighters.

Personally, I was not aware that Nakai was permanently blinded from his fight with Gordeau as you stated. But if he was, then it seems that Nakai got the worst of it, even if he won the tournament. I'd much rather have a broken ankle (which will heal) than be permanently blinded. And since we're discussing eye gouges, Tank Abbott also used an eye gouge on an opponent in an early UFC (while he was winning). It made his opponent want to tap out of the fight much more quickly than he would have otherwise.

The main point of my earlier post was that eye gouges and biting are not overestimated techniques. I even stated in my earlier post that a person will likely have to punch and kick his way into the clinch to deliver these techniques. This would imply that the fighter better be a decent striker. But you seem to have missed all of that and focused on a few sentences to mount your response.

[Adonis]

Hansen,

Actually current program of the Army combatives program is BJJ based. Being grappling the starting point later on solider is more entegrated with striking from boxing, mauy thai, as well as learning wreslting, judo, and filipine kali/arnis fighting. being able to flow between weapons training striking and grappling ranges.

biting and eye gouging, and groin shots I agree are good tools to have but should not be the primarily the ones focuses on. It is sort of on the same lines as the pressupre point ocultest who are so into the pressure points they loose track of basic skills to defend them selves. It's good knowledge to have but having a good foundating in striking/ hitting besides trying to pin point an d target limited areas.

[McBeth]

Hansen, Actually current program of the Army combatives program is BJJ based. Being grappling the starting point later on solider is more entegrated with striking from boxing, mauy thai, as well as learning wreslting, judo, and filipine kali/arnis fighting. being able to flow between weapons training striking and grappling ranges.

Actually, from friends I've spoken with who were in the Army Special Forces, their official combatives training focused on sentry neutralizations (usually with a weapon), close quarter termination (with a weapon), and improvised weapons. Grappling was discussed and even practiced, but was never key or a major focus of the combatives program. Also, one of my closest friends is a Navy Seal instructor, and from our numerous discussions on close quarter fighting, he's always maintained that in a military situation he would never recommend willingly taking a fight to the ground the way BJJ advocates. It would get him killed. But he did find BJJ useful for civilian life, especially law enforcement. (By the way, he is a purple belt in BJJ, just so you don't think he's anti-BJJ).

I'm guessing you are misinterpreting a program that is offered in the military with an official government sanctioned combatives course to handle life and death, military situations. While BJJ is offered and taught, I've never heard of it being the official program they advocate for military self-defense. And if it is, it sounds more like good marketing on the part of the BJJ community and people higher up may be jumping onto the NHB bandwagon. Many years ago, boxing used to be offered as a program as well (and still is). In fact, they periodically have boxing competitions, but I've never heard of boxing being an official government sanction combatives program either. Even as far back as WWII when boxing was the combative sport of the Western world, the military advocated eye gouging, fish hooks, biting, throat strikes, and groin strikes in conjunction with more traditional boxing strikes. But the emphasis was on the former.

[Manabimasho1]

So heres my question now.

What REALLY works?

Any style or school that does not teach thier moves in fast paste, hard hitting, struggling attackers is unrealistic.

Any style or school that teachs to block a punch when the other student is aiming 3 inches from your ear, or kicking 4 inches from your body is unrealistic.

Any style that doesn't teach atleast 5 counters to every one move or hold is unrealistic.

Any style or school that has an Instructor who DOESN"T sparr with his or her students is unrealistic.

Any Instructor that can be beaten by thier students under 20 years studying under them is unrealistic and you should seek a real master.

And don't act like you don't know schools that do these things. We travel all over and have yet to find 1 school that is realistic other then ours. Especialy the part with hitting or kicking and not actualy trying to aim or hit the other person.

[Adonis]

McBeth,

MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program) It covers grappling, striking, as well as weapons training. It is official Military Doctirne covered in (Army Regulation) AR 3-25.150

Combatives Program is having great Success compared to the other pre-equisting programs.

It is taught very heavily in the Rangers regiment, as well to new recruits in basic training, also to Infrantry Officers career course. As well as unites are supposed to be practiing it weekly.

So yes it is official military Army doctrine!

[McBeth]

McBeth,

MACP (Modern Army Combatives Program) It covers grappling, striking, as well as weapons training. It is official Military Doctirne covered in (Army Regulation) AR 3-25.150

Combatives Program is having great Success compared to the other pre-equisting programs.

It is taught very heavily in the Rangers regiment, as well to new recruits in basic training, also to Infrantry Officers career course. As well as unites are supposed to be practiing it weekly.

So yes it is official military Army doctrine!

Interesting. If true your information contradicts what I've been told by people in the elite sectors of the U.S. military, including one Seal instructor. But thanks for the reference, I'll definitely check it out.

But logically speaking it doesn't make much sense to have BJJ be the foundation of a military combatives program. If what you say is true then I would guess that BJJ's inclusion was the result of rather good marketing by military guys who studied BJJ or have jumped on the BJJ/NHB bandwagon. It doesn't seem to be based on sound military practice. After all, when would a soldier likely utilize BJJ in a military scenario? Weapons should be the primary emphasis and the foundation. For the empty hand portion (if taught to any significant extent at all) it seems more sensible to emphasize the simplest techniques that can be pulled off with minimal training and mimics the likeliest scenarios that a person will be faced with in a combat situation. I just don't see BJJ being a smart choice as the root of all combat for a soldier.

[Hansen]

I have two family members, actually in-laws, that are ex-military. One is a Captain and the other is a Lieutenant. Both have stated that empty hand fighting was never emphasized much at all for the general soldier. But those who wished to learn such skills could do so of their own volition, and their were programs available to those who wanted to pursue it. The stance of the military was and still is (to their knowledge) that if a fight moves to an actual, empty hand H2H situation then something (many things) went wrong. There should still be some weapon the soldier has access to draw upon to end or aid in a confrontation and it should never (ideally) become an unarmed grappling match. As it was told to me, the reality is that such scenarios are just unlikely to arise in real battle so the military never required its soldiers to participate in such programs, except on perhaps a very small or limited scale. Definitely not to the extent of being a full blown hardcore martial arts course requiring years and years of training as Karate25 seems to be implying. Perhaps a few days, a week course or a set of courses (spanning a couple weeks at a time), but covering many areas of combat, not just grappling or boxing.

McBeth - I'll check on Karate25's reference as well. Sounds crazy to me as well, but who knows... maybe we're wrong and military is no longer practicing for military situations. After all, they already have the best technology for handling most military scenarios. Perhaps BJJ is what they've gravitated to as their last challenge.

[McBeth]

Here you go, Hansen (and all the rest). I think this is the link that Karate25 was looking at. I found it by putting in Karate25's reference (MACP AR 3-25.150) as a search in google. Check it out: https://www.infantry.army.mil/combatives/content/Info_Paper_26may05.doc

If you read the top it is a "concept plan" (i.e. not implemented yet), dated May 25, 2005. This was just 3 months ago and given the fact that the government takes a life time to implement anything I'm guessing this is far from being an official Army program. Maybe what Karate25 is hearing about is a pilot program?

But it does appear that Karate25 is correct that the individuals who are pushing for this program plan to include "Muay Thai / Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Weapons fighting, Greco-Roman Wrestling" in the training. All very useful, but still better suited for NHB 101 rather than life and death warfare. However, I was not able to find any reference or hint that BJJ was the primary foundation or key element of this program, as Karate25 stated in an earlier post.

As stated earlier, it seems those who are pushing for this program are guys who have jumped onto the NHB bandwagon. There's nothing wrong with it. It provides great physical training, hard conditioning, and self-confidence. But I don't think it should be the foundation of a good solid military combatives program. Emphasis should be on weapons and defense against weapons. In my opinion, the old Col Applegate material is right on. His point shooting method is far superior to the methods propagated by many target shooters today and his military tactics are very instinctual and easy to implement in the heat of battle. BJJ and wrestling are also great but in my opinion these skills are frosting but shouldn't be the cake. If I was a military man, I'd take a combatives course that emphasized weapons over empty hands or grappling any day. The former is likely to save my life. The latter... maybe I can use it in a bar fight in some Third World country. But then again I'll probably have a bunch of my friends with me and improvised weapons to draw upon.

[BLueDevil]

Any style or school that has an Instructor who DOESN"T sparr with his or her students is unrealistic.

I agree with everything but this comment. My instructor doesnt spar with us now and hasnt sparred in a long time due to knee, shoulder, and neck problems. I dont think that makes him an ineffecient instructor

[Adonis]

I have been in the army for 2.5 years. Since I been in I seen the program wide spread. The Rangers were first introduced back in 96 to it I believe.

You can go check out https://www.moderncombatives.org for more info on that. I am a MACP Level 1 instructor.

As well as it is trained and part of the basic tasks and drills. Every soldier that goes through basic trianing gets this type of training as well as well as those who go through the Officer career course, ranger school, sapper schools. Many units are doing it through out he army and it is pushed as army regulation.

I screwed up as AR it is covered in training and doctrine. IT is FM (field Manuel) FM 3-25.150 sorry my fault . Game and AR which should be FM. still part of Army's combatives. About yoru seal friend. They fall under the Department of the Navy. So diffrent branch diffrent needs.

Edited August 19, 2005 by Adonis