Naha-te and Shuri-te styles.

[Master Jules]

Master Jules,

Where did Saifa come from?

I'm not Master Jules, but if I remember correctly, Saifa was created by Miyagi Sensi.

Smitty is correct. Chojun Miyagi created Gekisai Ichi and Ni, as well as Tensho and Saifa. With the help of Toguchi, he also created Gekisai San, as well as Geki Ha and Kaku Ha. The beginning kata were created to help beginning students "bridge the gap" from the basic techniques to the more advanced one found in the more advanced kata.

As far as Shuri Te goes, I dont believe that there was any influence from Aikijujitsu. Matsumura studied under Sakugawa, who had much of his training in China, and The creation of Shuri Te is really a synthesis of both Okinawan and Chuan Fa fighting techniques.

[Sauzin]

Naha-te :

Goju Ryu

Uichi ryu

Ryuei Ryu

influnced by Tiger fist and Whooping crane and 5 animal kongFu,Chin Na ,created and developed by civilians in Naha area

lower stances, powerfull punches, sticky hand blocks, controlled breathing

basic katas: higaonna Sanchin,Miyagi Sanchin,Tensho

Shuri te:

Shorin ryu Matsumura seito (Bubishi Matsumura,Nabe Matsumura,Hohen Soken)

Shorin ryu kobayashi (By Chibana)

Shorin ryu shaolin (i think this is Seibukan)(By shimabukuru)

shorin ryu Matsubayashi (influ. By Tomari Te)(By Nagamine)

okinawan kempo (influ. by Tomari Te)(by Nakamura)

mixture of white crane, 5 animals kongFu, Sakugawa Te,Aiki Jujutsu , mostly used by palace gaurds in shuri,

high stances, natural breathing, speedy moves, positioning,

Basic katas: shorinji Sanchin,Naihanchi

One correction. Okinawan Kenpo is technically a Nahate with very heavy Shuri te and some Tomari Te influences. The root system is from Nakamura Shigeru >Kunioshi, Shinkichi>"Bushi" Sakiyama of Naha fame. Seisan, Niseishi, Sanchin, and I believe our version of Kusanku Dai are Nahate derivitives. I could certainly understand grouping it with Shuri-te just by looking at it but it is technically a Naha-te.

[P.A.L]

Hi Sauzin,

I Consider Okinawan Kenpo a shuri style based on the founder style, Nakamura started his karate in shuri under his father,uncle and Choki Motobu, he met Kuniyoshi after his collage (correct me on this one if i am wrong. Ref. Mark Bishop) before that he was with Yabu (student of Matsumura and the only man I know who beat Motobu ) and Hanashiro( another student of Itosu). looking into katas originally tought by Nakamura including

Naihanchi I,II,III, Pinan I,II,III,IV,V,Passai sho,Dai, Kusanku Sho,Dai, Gojushiho,chinto,as well as Kuniyoshi's katas Sanchin,Niseishi,Seisan,Anan,Seipa shows he is shuri master from itosu lineage with infuences from chinese boxing.

what i am not sure is that he ever trained under Sakiyama directly or it was through Kuniyoshi. I don't know if his son Taketo has changed any of his fathers katas.

what are the katas of okinawan kenpo you practice now? do you consider your kumite style close to motobu ryu ?

[Dark Shogun]

How did Saifa and Sanchin come to be in Shito Ryu? Mabuni trained under Kanryo Higoshiana correct? Did he also train under Miyagi?

Thaks for the link P.A.L, I've read it before tho. What does everyone else think of this article?

[Sauzin]

It was my understanding that Nakimura spent some time studying under Kuniyoshi, though never directly under Sakiyama, and this is where our Seisan, Niseishi, and Sanchin came from. I was also told that our Kusanku Dai was in this group of origin katas from Kuniyoshi but I could be mistaken. It was also my understanding that Kuniyoshi was the successor of Sakiyama, and Nakimura was the official successor of Kuniyoshi. This is why they say "officially Naha-te" because the line exists though few of the kata and techniques still do. You can see the official list of Okinawan Kenpo kata at:

http://daisenseiodo.tripod.com/id9.html

Our school does a few additional kata from Ryuryu, isshin-ryu, and Goju but for the most we practice everything on the list.

I have no doubt that our sparring style was influenced by Motobu-ryu but there are some very unique aspects to the way Okinawan Kenpo goes about it. We are all about proper distancing and very strong punches, but what really gives an Okinawan Kenpo practitioner away is the stance work we use to punch. We like to bring the back foot up slightly and out to create a wider stance just before we land a punch. This moves us off line and really allows us to get our hip and body into it. This also creates kind of a diagonal shuffle that is in most of our stepping drills and kata.

[P.A.L]

is your sanchin same as Miyagi Sanchin or it's a open hand with turns? how about your Hakutsuru is it Matsumura Hakutsuru sho,dai?

[Sauzin]

The sanchin is quite a bit different then anything most people have seen with Goju-ryu or Ueichi-ryu. It is close fisted but is done in a front stance and has an interesting gripping exersize near the end. I'll have to ask my sensei which Hakutsuru it is but I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of them was a Matsumura Hakutsuru. I do know one has a Goju-ryu lineage.

[ONE TROOF]

Master Jules,

Where did Saifa come from?

I'm not Master Jules, but if I remember correctly, Saifa was created by Miyagi Sensi.

As far as Shuri Te goes, I dont believe that there was any influence from Aikijujitsu. Matsumura studied under Sakugawa, who had much of his training in China, and The creation of Shuri Te is really a synthesis of both Okinawan and Chuan Fa fighting techniques.

That's incorrect. Matsumura Sokon was a Shihan in Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, the fighting art of the Satsuma Samurai family. So Shuri Te's influences are three-fold:

1) Ti

2) Shaolin Ssu Chuan Fa (Kenpo)

3)Jigen Ryu

It's a true MMA, as is all Okinawan karate.

The Ti aspects and grappling are much more evident in Matsumura Seito than the other Shorin Ryuha (Kobayashi, Matsubayashi, Shobayashi).

If you are a karate-ka most likely you do a derivative of Shuri Te. The Tomari Te concepts are less prevalent in Kobayashi and Matsumura Orthodox, and moreso in the kyan inspired systems.

All the Okinawan masters were peichin to some degree, but those styles descended from Matsumura have a lot of royal palace guard fighting and self-protection/preservation in them. The others are more "peasant" fighting.

The Naha styles are more recently from China and they have Ti and Chuan Fa influences, no Jigen Ryu, but grappling from Okinawa Ti.

Not mentioned was Ishimine Ryu and Motobu Ryu (Goten Te), like Matsumura's art it is a palace protection style taught to the Okinawan royals. Choki did not learn this art, but did try to watch his older brother (Choyu) training and then went out and made his own style based on Shuri Te, Toamri Te and streetfighting. He was then a teacher of cats like Nagamine and Kenwa.

Hope I added to this discussion.

Peace.

[Master Jules]

What part was incorrect ?

[Smitty]

I think he was talking about the whole "no influence from aikijujitsu" thing.