Submission wrestling & BJJ

[dingyuan]

Hi, I just have a question about MMAs, what exactly is the main difference between the Ken Shamrock's style of submission wrestling and BJJ/GJJ? Thanks.

[Gumbi]

Ken Shamrock fights much more of a Pancrase/ Catch Wrestling type of game than Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Catch was all about submissions from virtually everywhere and making your opponent submit quickly. As a result, footlocks are rather popular, since a foot is almost always there to grab and twist.

BJJ is a little more methodical and was thought out more in terms of a real fight. For example, positional dominance is heavily emphasized in BJJ (not to say that it isnt in catch). It is because of this that footlocks are not as popular in BJJ, because you never really have to attain a dominant position when attempting one. You'll often hear "position before submission" in that the better position you're in, the better chance you stand of submitting your opponent.

So, from this comparison right here, you're more likely to see Ken Shamrock attempt a lower body submission (footlock, kneelock, etc) and more likely to see a Gracie attempt an upper body submission (armbar, choke).

Heavy emphasis on guard work in BJJ also separates the two styles somewhat. About 90% of the time in a BJJ match is spent fighting to pass the guard or fighting from the guard. Theres nothing new in terms of techniques in BJJ, but because the Gracies were on a smaller stature, they had to really develop their guard games. This meant they had a much better understanding of it than others who were good wrestlers or simply strong fighters and used to being on top. As a result, they most likely were able to teach guard work with a better perspective.

Consider an analogy- you can learn takedowns off of an Olmpic Judoka or a World Champ Jiu Jitsu fighter. They both know the same throws, but the Judoka would know SO many little details and could convey the technique much better than the Jiu Jitsu guy.

Because of Pancrase rules, punching with a closed fist to the face was illegal on the ground, so footlocks were much more popular. It takes both hands to footlock someone, and its much less appealing to attempt a footlock when your opponent can crack your skull with a closed fist as opposed to smacking you with his palm.

In a nutshell, I would say Shamrocks style has better takedowns and is better at lower body submissions. BJJ/GJJ will often have better positioning, better guardwork, and better upper body submissions.

[ravenzoom]

Gumbi's post seems explicit enough!!!!!

[Mr Pockets]

Yea everything Gumbi said.. good post. It's weird in how they end up being the same thing, almost, yet different.

[rubberband]

Catch wrestling/ submission wrestling is actually very well thought out and does consider what happens in a real fight... in catch wrestling there are two main strategies... to use dominant positional relationships... much like Bjj but with more positional options with limitied use of mount, backmount, or guard (because without a gi these positions are hard to hold).... and to use your opponents natural movement reactions to your movements to lead your opponent into a submission... Catch wreslting is a highly refined and intelligent approach to ground fighting that has scientific thought at its core...

Bjj is also a refined and intelligent approach that relies more heavily on the dominate relationship strategy... it is because of the dominant relationship strategy that Bjj doesn't seek as many leg locks as catch/submision wrestlers... since in general the arms are not as powerful as the legs... also Bjj was developed around the wearing of the traditional jacket or Gi... which creates different handles and leverage for the practitioner... making positions that face the jacket lapels straight on more viable and add to the submission opportunities... it should be added that the core of Bjj comes from Japanese Jujitsu and Judo... so the basis of Bjj origionates with jujitsu and judo principles...

where as catch wrestling was developed in Europe as a way of omiting the need for a potentially biased referee when two villages had a wrestling match... it was reasoned that if the man who lost the match would cry out then everyone would know who won and lost without the need for a thrid party...

the difference between these two arts is approach... both are methodical, well thought out and refined... and they complement each other very well... in some ways modern submission wrestling is a blend of both catch wrestling and Bjj... the key is to not get caught up in the marketing and politics of one particular style... just have fun...

I hope that this answers your question... and I hope this opens the minds of those who see catch wrestling as a lessor form of ground fighting...

take care, steve

[rubberband]

oops... posted twice