JJJ and The Clinch

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"Sure go slow at first, that's how we learn techniques. Drill them, do them while you brush your teeth, while you shower, in your sleep. The problem I see is that you never fully execute a highly damaging move like a breaking throw. You'll always be left thinking what should happen, but will it? "

That's when simple physics, anatomy, common sense, and trust in your instructor and your art come in. If you can't figure some things out on your own, you're a shell of a martial artist. Will this work? Well think about it...if when you do it slowly and apply gentle pressure, the uke cringes, then yes-it will work.

"What would be more useful is something you can practice at full force all the time. If I execute a shoulder throw with an elbow break, I throw my partner twice, once per arm maybe every six months full force. If i don't break the arm, provided the partner knows a shred of ukemi, I can still do slow half entries and full throws till I exhaust my self - all day if i had the stamina. Say my partner gets a shoulder injury, okay sit out a month and a half, that is still way more than the breaking method. That's how you work on your form, by doing what you intend to do. "

So you only practice techniques that you can train with with full force and harmful intent? That leaves you with a hip toss and a shoulder throw...if you're lucky. And you must be horrible at the elbow breaking technique...after all, you said yourself that you only practice full force and speed, and with resistance. Executed properly, you would break uke's arm on the first throw, undoubtedly (because resisting such techniques only makes things worse).

"To each his own, you can half practice a technique all you like, I'd stick with something that I have actually done."

There are plenty of techniques that are performed full speed and full force when the situation permits. There are other techniques that cannot be, though if you train correctly, they will still be ingrained into your muscle memory and be ready to be used if necessary.

[Treebranch]

Yeah do boxers spar bare knuckled? It's silly, the way train Budo Taijutsu is the we train in BJJ, it's not that different. I'm not breaking peoples arms in BJJ either, so how do I know the armbar will break an arm? It's pretty obvious, but I guess not to people who don't know how to do the techniques. The techniques aren't that hard to pull off if you understand how to manipulate balance while grappling in the standing position. Most people think it's fancy, but even if you saw it done you probably wouldn't see what was really happening. Just like most people don't see the subtle movements in BJJ, they just see the end result. Believe what you want but it doesn't make you right. If anyone wants to come to my school and feel a modified version of these locks let me know. I like when people come from other disciplines, they may bring something new with them. Remember, closed minds don't grow.

[NotQuiteDead]

But if you are standing it is much riskier to try to submit someone.

If you are standing it's a lot easier for the opponent to get away, making successful locks (and thus injuries) less common... assuming the 'opponent' is allowed to do something besides stand there.

That's odd, we do clinch work and takedowns and all sorts of throws all the time. We focus mostly on the ground, but the standup definitely goes beyond basic Judo throws.

If you're doing anything else besides judo throws, chances are it's been taken from wrestling.

How do you adapt Tomoe Nage (Circle Throw)

Tomoe nage is a sacrifice technique, I don't think of it as a "throw". Do you think pulling guard is a throw?

This is ridiculous! Of course you learn them slow at first- did you learn to run first, or walk?

Lol, try doing a lateral drop slowly...

[GhostlySykanRyu]

That's nice. However, Tomoe Nage is certainly still a throw. Thus the name "Circle Throw".

[NotQuiteDead]

There's a type of fish called a Ghost Knife, does that mean it's either a ghost or a knife?

There's a thread about this topic on a judo forum right now, too. Apparently to judo-ka, anything that puts the opponent on the ground is considered a 'throw'. This includes trips, etc. If I trip someone, did I just throw them? I don't think so.

This is all just semantics. When I said all throws could be adapted to leave you standing, I was talking about what I see as throws (ie hip throws, lateral drops, etc.).

[GhostlySykanRyu]

You can bring up fishes and ghosts and knives all you like. Tomoe Nage is a throw. Your opponent is literally thrown, and very hard at that.

Sweeping is classified as Nage because it makes sense to do so...though anything that takes the opponent to the ground can be classified as a throw..."throw" in the English language is a very flexible term, many of its definitions would classify a sweep or trip as a throw:

throw

-To propel through the air with a motion of the hand or arm.

-To discharge into the air by any means

-To hurl or fling with great force or speed

-To force (an opponent) to the ground or floor, as in wrestling or the martial arts.

-To cause to fall off

-To put on or off hastily or carelessly

To put (suddenly or forcefully) into a given condition, position, or activity

-To devote, apply, or direct

-To form on a potter's wheel

-To twist (fibers) into thread.

-To roll (dice).

-To roll (a particular combination) with dice.

-To discard or play (a card).

-To send forth; project

-To cause (one's voice) to seem to come from a source other than oneself.

-To cause to fall on or over something

-To bear (young). Used of cows or horses, for example.

-To arrange or give (a party, for example).

-To move (a lever or switch) in order to activate, deactivate, or control a device.

-Informal. To lose or give up (a contest, for example) purposely.

-To abandon oneself to; have: heard the news and threw a fit.

-To commit (oneself), especially for leniency or support: threw himself on the mercy of the court.

-To deliver (a punch), as in boxing: threw a left hook.

v. intr.

-To cast, fling, or hurl something.

[NotQuiteDead]

I already explained that my comment was based on what I see as a throw. It's funny that one of your definitions says "...as in wrestling..." because in wrestling double legs, single legs, etc. aren't throws. By your definition, they can be.

Those defitions contradict eachother. For example,

-To propel through the air with a motion of the hand or arm.

-To discharge into the air by any means

The first is restricted to the hands and arms, while the latter could be anything (trips included).

-To force (an opponent) to the ground or floor,

-To devote, apply, or direct

The first states they have to end up on the floor, but the second could be merely pushing the opponent.

Again, this is all semantics.

[judoguy]

See here is where the problem is. JJJ throws are really designed to break the arm or shoulder, etc.. when you use these throws. So not going to ground with the opponent is smart if you are worried about someone else getting into it with you. You've broken one guys arm from the get go and don't have to worry to much about the guy, unless he's insane or something. It is much harder to throw someone while trying not to break their arm. Locks should thought of as strikes, the strikes create the locks, and locks are really breaks. That's why submission artists can fight effectively in a competition format and we can't. It's just too difficult to have that much patient and control with these types of techniques.

Hey Treebranch, just to let you know most of those throws that are designed to break the arm or wrist are not going to cause projection. For example if you look at one of jujitsu's most demonstrated techniques; the wristlock throw, it really won't cause the person to filp in a graceful arc to the ground but would splinter the wrist. The reason people flip/breakfall is to avoid serious injury. The same can be said of most arm breaking throws. An example of this is Renzo Gracie v Sakuraba. Sak performed a standing kimura lock on Renzo. Renzo tried to breakfall but the damage had all ready been done and his elbow was dislocated.

If a person has his/her arm busted during a throw it most likely is purely accidental if not incidental. A keylock takedown is another example. If done at full force it will cause a takedown, but it will also damage the shoulder before the opponent has a chance to go with it, but when done with a little less force, such as in a JJJ demonstration it will allow the uke time to react and flow with the technique. Just my 2 cents.

[Treebranch]

That's exactly right.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"I already explained that my comment was based on what I see as a throw. It's funny that one of your definitions says "...as in wrestling..." because in wrestling double legs, single legs, etc. aren't throws. By your definition, they can be. "

Not quite. I didn't write the dictionary. I was simply pointing out that something you stated as not being a throw, even though it is most definitely a throw, can be disproved by not only common sense and basic martial concepts, but by the dictionary as well.

"The first is restricted to the hands and arms, while the latter could be anything (trips included). "

The first implies that the arms are used to lead the motion. And yes, the latter can be anything. Thanks for making my side of the arguement easier

All I did was point out that the term "throw" is not set in stone, as much as you would like it to be.