JJJ and The Clinch

[Treebranch]

Not that they can't be adapted, but the question is why nobody trains them that way? Most Judo thows are done this way, but I guess there not alot of Judo guys doing MMA's that's probably why you don't see it that often?

[traz]

Not to be rude or anything, and I definitely do appreciate the replies. But, my question was not what was good for the clinch. I'm aware of what is good...however not everything is available where I"m moving to, and some things I don't want to do.

So if possible...can we stick to JJJ opinions? hehe. I know about bjj, and judo, and wrestling...but for various reasons I won't be doing them ;o

[TJS]

Not that they can't be adapted, but the question is why nobody trains them that way?

Most people who use takedowns want to follow you to the ground so they can pin, submitt, or Ground and pound you. Although there is a chance of hurting people with throws(especially on a hard surface) there is also a good chance of them getting right back up in a scramble if you dont end up on top of them...especially when talking about other fighers.

[Treebranch]

See here is where the problem is. JJJ throws are really designed to break the arm or shoulder, etc.. when you use these throws. So not going to ground with the opponent is smart if you are worried about someone else getting into it with you. You've broken one guys arm from the get go and don't have to worry to much about the guy, unless he's insane or something. It is much harder to throw someone while trying not to break their arm. Locks should thought of as strikes, the strikes create the locks, and locks are really breaks. That's why submission artists can fight effectively in a competition format and we can't. It's just too difficult to have that much patient and control with these types of techniques.

[NotQuiteDead]

That's why submission artists can fight effectively in a competition format and we can't. It's just too difficult to have that much patient and control with these types of techniques.

A submission is a break... the only difference is the amount of pressure applied. Now if you're talking about holding their arm out and smashing a forearm into it, that's different, but from the rest of your post it looks like you're just talking about locks.

I've never trained in trad JJ, but I've done a little hapkido and I still do a lot of grappling with a guy who used to do hapkido. I've heard the two are very similar. Most of the wrist- and arm-lock takedowns can be used in grappling. The only one I can think of that can't be used in grappling is the forearm smash, but even that could be done without the strike and used as a lever instead.

[TJS]

JJJ throws are really designed to break the arm or shoulder, etc.. when you use these throws.

well I guess that cuts down on your practice time... I take it you have never actually done these throws?

[Treebranch]

Sure you can practice them half speed so that your training partner can protect themselves. You can do these with out breaking the arm, but I wouldn't recommend doing it full force in practice. Look let's face it real fighting and combat was used for life and death situations that's way you have to modify techniques to make it a sport. For example in BJJ, the arm bar can be used for submission and breaking but since you are both on the ground and can't really go anywhere if you get the lock on correctly. But if you are standing it is much riskier to try to submit someone.

TJS why wouldn't you break the arm or wrist in a real situation? Besides if you know anything about real fighting it's almost impossible to get a lock on until you've softened them up with some strikes first. Anyone that's willing to let me do these throws and locks on them for real, just let me know. That way TJS will believe that they can actually be done.

[rb]

Along the lines of what TJS is saying - how do you know it will work unless you have done it? How is real fighting doing stuff at half speed, letting your partner prepare for a throw?

A person trapped in an armbar that is locked in, applied will feel pain. If they do not tap out it will be dislocated. Throwing does not trap the person as much so there is more degrees of freedom. That makes the outcome of the throw less certain. I'd count on a throw that i've practiced full force against one I had 10 times the half speed practice.

[Mr Pockets]

Mr Pockets I'm in BJJ and never once has anyone mentioned balance points or any other throws besides basic judo throws. This is something that takes awhile to learn but is really useful. I think it is so worth the time to explore more throws and strikes from the clinch where you don't go down but they do. Most throws is MMA you go down with your opponent, but our throws leave you standing and them on their back. Think of what you could do from that position.

That's odd, we do clinch work and takedowns and all sorts of throws all the time. We focus mostly on the ground, but the standup definitely goes beyond basic Judo throws. A lot of the time a Judo throw, depending on how exactly you do it, gives you the option to go down with him (usually safer and more sure of getting the throw) or not (not as safe but you probably get to slam him harder.)

Anyway, sorry Traz- we tend to get off topic in these forums it seems. I would say that there's a decent amount of clinch work in JJJ, but I doubt you'll learn much in the way of takedowns (wrestling style) or strikes like knees and elbows and headbutts.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"hey all. I'm moving soon and will be going into JJJ. And I was curious, for all you JJJ practioners, does your training help you in the clinch?"

Yes. Very much so.

"I have yet to see a throw that couldn't be adapted to leave the thrower standing, regardless of style."

How do you adapt Tomoe Nage (Circle Throw)"

"How is real fighting doing stuff at half speed, letting your partner prepare for a throw? "

I don't think that's the point he was trying to make. Practicing at a slow speed improves your form and allows you to keep it in check. There are times to practice slowly and times to speed things up. If I am to throw someone and immediately apply an armbar, I'll do it quickly. If that armbar submission is to be replaced with an armbreaker, then it is common sense to slow down and not use enough force to actually do harm.

"I'd count on a throw that i've practiced full force against one I had 10 times the half speed practice."

So you'd rather use the throw that has a chance of having sloppy form?