JJJ and The Clinch

[rb]

Go with the momentum and you will land in side control or mount, if you so desire standup on the exit.

You can only go so far doing static or slow speed practice. You will never get the feel for the final execution in terms of flow or explosiveness.

Final question - yes. Try throwing someone that is actively resisting, it won't look pretty unless there is a big skill difference. Why spend loads of time making it theoretically perfect in a manner that you will never use it in.

[TJS]

Treebranch-I dont doubt the throws work or are effective, I do think it's going to be hard to be good at them if you never practice them against live or resisting opponets.

[AngryMatt]

In a real fighting situation you are going to have that adrenaline flowing and you're not going to hit that throw perfectly. In training, it's best to get the feel of the move and to learn how to perfect that form.

Yes it is important to work against a resisting opponent once in awhile. But that's only because it helps you truly perfect that form. When they resist, you have to hit it correctly in order for the throw to work. So yes you should work with resistance but you're never going to duplicate a real fighting environment and doing a throw at 100% live is damn dangerous if you're doing a throw that includes a lock for a break.

[Treebranch]

Treebranch-I dont doubt the throws work or are effective, I do think it's going to be hard to be good at them if you never practice them against live or resisting opponets.

Who said I didn't practice against resisting opponents? I've pulled off many of these throws with boxing gloves on, I think it would be easier without the gloves, but I don't think my training partners want to get hit without protection. The hardest part is not getting the lock on, it's keeping your head when your being attacked. My philosophy is train your body to respond to changes and keep your head to know what to do with the changes. It's the same way we practice BJJ. We learn techniques, locks, submissions, escapes and then we try them. Sometimes you pull off a lock on one person and couldn't on some other person. I don't really see any differences in the way we train Budo Taijutsu. I will say standing stuff is a little harder to pull off, but that's where training comes in. You can disagree if you want, but I'll be stubborn and keep training.

[Treebranch]

In a real fighting situation you are going to have that adrenaline flowing and you're not going to hit that throw perfectly. In training, it's best to get the feel of the move and to learn how to perfect that form.

Yes it is important to work against a resisting opponent once in awhile. But that's only because it helps you truly perfect that form. When they resist, you have to hit it correctly in order for the throw to work. So yes you should work with resistance but you're never going to duplicate a real fighting environment and doing a throw at 100% live is damn dangerous if you're doing a throw that includes a lock for a break.

Exactly. You really have to understand what the lock is going to do to the person before you start playing full-contact. It is too easy get the lock on slip a little and "snap". That's why it takes extra control not to hurt someone with this stuff. It's not really designed to submit, it's designed to break and tear. I'm not trying to hype it up by saying it's dangerous. Fighting in itself is dangerous and this is just part of fighting.

[TJS]

Treebranch-I dont doubt the throws work or are effective, I do think it's going to be hard to be good at them if you never practice them against live or resisting opponets.

Who said I didn't practice against resisting opponents? I've pulled off many of these throws

So you have pulled of a throw where you broke someones arm during the throw? Since you said

JJJ throws are really designed to break the arm or shoulder, etc.. when you use these throws.

. either you are not doing it full speed against a reisiting opponet or you are modifying the throw.

[GhostlySykanRyu]

"You can only go so far doing static or slow speed practice. You will never get the feel for the final execution in terms of flow or explosiveness.

Final question - yes. Try throwing someone that is actively resisting, it won't look pretty unless there is a big skill difference. Why spend loads of time making it theoretically perfect in a manner that you will never use it in"

Did you read my post? I said that there is a time for speed. If you can't do it slowly first and get the feel for the technique, you won't be able to do it quickly either.

[rb]

Sure go slow at first, that's how we learn techniques. Drill them, do them while you brush your teeth, while you shower, in your sleep. The problem I see is that you never fully execute a highly damaging move like a breaking throw. You'll always be left thinking what should happen, but will it?

What would be more useful is something you can practice at full force all the time. If I execute a shoulder throw with an elbow break, I throw my partner twice, once per arm maybe every six months full force. If i don't break the arm, provided the partner knows a shred of ukemi, I can still do slow half entries and full throws till I exhaust my self - all day if i had the stamina. Say my partner gets a shoulder injury, okay sit out a month and a half, that is still way more than the breaking method. That's how you work on your form, by doing what you intend to do.

Look at fencing, judo, bjj, wrestling, boxing, muay thai, contact tkd and karate. Lots of full speed training with non-cooperative partners.

Talking about adrenaline, try doing a technique when you have the shakes, so excited that you can hear your heart. To each his own, you can half practice a technique all you like, I'd stick with something that I have actually done.

[Mr Pockets]

This is ridiculous! Of course you learn them slow at first- did you learn to run first, or walk? You learn the move slow, fast, then against increasing levels of resistance. This is true for JJJ, BJJ, MT, karate, Boxing, Judo, and anything else. Why would anyone say otherwise?

[AngryMatt]

Well here's an important thing to bring up... do you spar with no protective gear? And I mean full out spar with live punches and kicks. No, of course you don't. That's completely unnecessary. You either put on gear or restrict the strikes to kicks and "slaps" instead of full punches.

It's the same for throws, especially submission throws. You don't just learn it and then step in there for live goes. The guy taking the throw has to learn how to take it properly without getting his arm broken and that's not your standard ukemi.