MMA: more arrows in your quiver or dilution of your form?

[baronbvp]

Based on some other threads in the karate and combative MA subjects (UFC), quite a few people have discussed that Mixed Martial Arts are what many people are doing now instead of a pure form.

Do you add any other forms to your style of karate? Does grappling add to your effectiveness? Or do you think focusing on one discipline keeps it pure and effective instead of diluted and sloppy?

I have been sort of a MMA throughout my life, though that term hadn't been invented. Now I am focusing on shorin-ryu but can't resist adapting it as another part of my arsenal.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I think people have to realize that traditional martial arts are merely mixed martial arts that survived over time. What distinguishes them from your run-of-the-mill mixed martial arts style is traditional styles are (should be) presented in a well-integrated format that takes all parts as a seamless whole.

I've got nothing against mixed martial arts places or "new styles". However, I think in order for it to be worth your while, they have to combine everything into a workable, complementary whole. Anyone can take an assortment of techniques and put them together in a hodge-podge fashion. But what makes a style good is whether or not the principles are complementary to each other and in a logical format for transmission. This is much harder to do, although it isn't impossible.

[aefibird]

Also, some styles can be contradictory to one another when mixed. For example, they may have different ways of generating power or use stances that contradict one another.

MMA is a good idea to train in ideas and concepts that aren't included in your original or base art, but sometimes it can do more harm than good and leave people with a watered down version of each of their chosen styles.

MMA can be a good thing when used effectively, though.

[baronbvp]

I agree with both of you, which is why I am finally focusing on one style - shorin-ryu. While I feel relatively capable as a fighter, I wasn't really progressing anymore on my own. But I do feel that grappling is an important skill that some standup fighters neglect.

Now that I'm older, I also appreciate the mind-body-spirit artistry of a pure style. It's really just a matter of incorporating shorin-ryu training as yet another time demand in my busy daily life.

So far it is well worth it!

[ovine king]

what you intially describe isn't MMA.

MMA is a modern system that blends moves to form a fighting method that goes from kicking to punching to grappling.

in the places i have seen, it is like they aim to get to grappling range and work their way from kicking to punching to grappling as their method.

MMA isn't simply training in more than one style and trying to make it work all together.

as the others have said, most traditional styles are MMA of sorts and feature cross training anyway.

in the chinese styles, things such as grappling/chin-na and tumbling are usually learnt after the core styles is learnt or singular techniques are shown to give the core styles' moves more 'colour'/depth

i.e showing how to do a take down from a certain position because that position is a common situation when using the core style.

also, like the others have said, simply mish mashing two styles doesn't always work because whilst the core principles might be the same, their executions thereof might not be.

like i said in another thread; the idea taht taking a good kicking system and adding a good hands system (muay thai+boxing) on the surface seems to be a good idea but in practice, they don't really work with each other.

what you end up with is a compromised style that i would argue is not as good as if you just stuck with either one of them;

that's ignoring the fantastic elbow and knee work of the thai boxer, which goes in part to illustrate my point.

the thai boxer doesn't need to punch like a boxer because he would use his legs at that range to take your base and then close up to elbow and knee;

a boxer's punching just doesn't fit in with muay thai tactics.

[baronbvp]

Good post, but I disagree that kicking and punching don't go together. To me, a boxer who can't use his legs for opoortune kicks is missing a weapon. And I have never seen a real fight (or any standup fight) without punches, including in my several visits to Thailand.

"If you take out the head, the body will fall."

[ovine king]

it's not that punching and kicking don't go together,

it's that the way boxers punch (wide stance, drive through hips, planted back foot) doesn't lend itself very well to the kicking method of the that boxer.

(he has to close his stance to be able to lift a leg to kick)

besides, the way a boxer plays his game, if he were gloveless, something like judo might be a better training partner because that would compliment his toucing range game.

individual permitting of course.

point is, not everything can be paired with everything else, not without some compromise.

going back to the thai boxer.

i would say that if he were to attempt to adopt the boxers punching technique, he would be compromising his kicking base.

[SevenStar]

Do you add any other forms to your style of karate? Does grappling add to your effectiveness? Or do you think focusing on one discipline keeps it pure and effective instead of diluted and sloppy?

mixing styles will only make you sloppy if you go about it the wrong way. for example, starting in multiple styles too early. that's always a bad thing. If you look at the guys who fight, they fall into one of two categories:

1. people who started training at an mma school - so to them it's all one style anyway.

2. people who have a strong base in SOMETHING. liddell has a strong kempo base, vanderlei has a thai boxing base, noguiera has a bjj base, rampage is a wrestler, etc. They later learned other things.

I have been sort of a MMA throughout my life, though that term hadn't been invented. Now I am focusing on shorin-ryu but can't resist adapting it as another part of my arsenal.

this is a pet peeve of mine. someone who mixes any random MA in NOT an mma. A mma is someone who trains in two aspects of fighting - striking and grappling.

judo and boxing = mma

muay thai and bjj = mma

karate and wrestling = mma

tae kwon do and catch = mma

tkd, karate and kali = NOT mma

karate and silat = not mma

etc...

to be specific, the term mma really denotes someone who competes in mixed martial arts tournaments - this comprises of people who train striking and grappling.

[SevenStar]

I think people have to realize that traditional martial arts are merely mixed martial arts that survived over time. What distinguishes them from your run-of-the-mill mixed martial arts style is traditional styles are (should be) presented in a well-integrated format that takes all parts as a seamless whole.

true. What many traditional guys don't realize though, is the focus. longfist, for example, MAY have groundwork in there SOMEWHERE. that really doesn't mean anything. People say "there's grappling in the forms, you just have to apply it to the ground" but that's bunk... a standing chin na lock won't transfer directly to the ground most of the time - modification needs to be made. If you aren't working these modifications, then you won't know... and a streetfight is NOT the right place for experimentation. Also, they are re-inventing the wheel. you can modify your stuff to work on the ground, but why? there are already ground styles that are geared toward it. So, by trying to take the time and figure it out, you are slowing your learning process.

[SevenStar]

it's not that punching and kicking don't go together,

it's that the way boxers punch (wide stance, drive through hips, planted back foot) doesn't lend itself very well to the kicking method of the that boxer.

(he has to close his stance to be able to lift a leg to kick)

i would say that if he were to attempt to adopt the boxers punching technique, he would be compromising his kicking base.

very true. in westernized thai boxing, you will learn two stances - boxing stance and kick stance. the kick stance is the more traditional thai stance.