Judo

[seersin]

^^^ I don't bow and hail tha sensei now.

[AngryMatt]

Not really, some maybe think that way. You have to admit though, right now BJJ is an art that is very complete in it's grappling. I can't find a BJJ school that doesn't teach techniques applicable from wrestling, judo, or anything else. It isn't just a style out on it's own, it contains the same throws and submissions you will find elsewhere. Plus! there's none of that bowing before class and hailing your sensei and all of that.

Exactly my point man. Now there are some schools who are more traditional and plenty of guys who train in BJJ who are mature... but the art itself leaves open the window that you can have guys who train that aren't in the right mindset.

In many other more traditional arts, that possibility doesn't exist. I'm not saying that I'm a huge tradition guy; I'm not. I just think being more traditional lends itself to ensuring a good level of maturity both in and outside the dojo because those who are training have NO OTHER CHOICE. I don't buy into any of the Eastern religious stuff or any of the mental meditation aspect of Budo Taijutsu, but going to training and bowing and being more traditional gets me, and the rest of those present, in a more serious mindset.

[ravenzoom]

AngryMatt wrote:

but going to training and bowing and being more traditional gets me, and the rest of those present, in a more serious mindset.

I agree on this, I'm not against bowing to the Sensei, it shows respect.

[Mr Pockets]

Not really, some maybe think that way. You have to admit though, right now BJJ is an art that is very complete in it's grappling. I can't find a BJJ school that doesn't teach techniques applicable from wrestling, judo, or anything else. It isn't just a style out on it's own, it contains the same throws and submissions you will find elsewhere. Plus! there's none of that bowing before class and hailing your sensei and all of that.

Exactly my point man. Now there are some schools who are more traditional and plenty of guys who train in BJJ who are mature... but the art itself leaves open the window that you can have guys who train that aren't in the right mindset.

In many other more traditional arts, that possibility doesn't exist. I'm not saying that I'm a huge tradition guy; I'm not. I just think being more traditional lends itself to ensuring a good level of maturity both in and outside the dojo because those who are training have NO OTHER CHOICE. I don't buy into any of the Eastern religious stuff or any of the mental meditation aspect of Budo Taijutsu, but going to training and bowing and being more traditional gets me, and the rest of those present, in a more serious mindset.

I've found that in all the BJJ schools I've ever visited, all the students still have an unspoken respect for the place. Whatever kind of people they are outside of class is them, but in class we still follow what the instructor says, don't talk when he's talking, etc. However, we don't ask his permission to leave or go to the bathroom, if one shows up late it's no big deal, we don't have to bow, etc. It may be informal, but there's still respect. Sure people mess around and teasing; and there's some swearing and stuff that guys do when they get together, but so what? It doesn't bother anyone there. Believe me, if there was some little punk coming to class and truly disrespecting everyone, he wouldn't be welcome.

[Gumbi]

I've found that in all the BJJ schools I've ever visited, all the students still have an unspoken respect for the place. Whatever kind of people they are outside of class is them, but in class we still follow what the instructor says, don't talk when he's talking, etc. However, we don't ask his permission to leave or go to the bathroom, if one shows up late it's no big deal, we don't have to bow, etc. It may be informal, but there's still respect. Sure people mess around and teasing; and there's some swearing and stuff that guys do when they get together, but so what? It doesn't bother anyone there. Believe me, if there was some little punk coming to class and truly disrespecting everyone, he wouldn't be welcome.

Good point- whats wrong with shaking a guys hand when you see him?

I think the fact that you dont have to bow or call your instructor by a title other than his first name is what gives many BJJ guys even more respect. The guy who's instructing isnt superhuman, and he doesnt put himself on higher level than you by requiring you to call him sensei or master or some other title.

Not everyone is there with a warrior mentality either, and we're not little kids. Some guys simply want a good workout, a good hobby, and god forbid they have some fun and joke around in the class- I dont get those extreme formalities.

[AngryMatt]

How is bowing or calling someone sensei an extreme formality? I address my professors as "Professor Sigel" or "Professor Fischer" and address them as "sir" even though we're all s in the room. Anyone I know that is above me in terms of being my boss or simply having more experience in life as an older man or woman gets the "sir/ma'am" "Mr./Mrs." treatment until they tell me to address them differently.

I suppose that's a byproduct of having manners and being from the South...

[Mr Pockets]

We feel it's extreme in that it creates such a separation between instructor and student. For instance, when I was younger I was in a bogus little kung fu school and there were all sorts of rules about not sparring (if you could call it that) the instructor unless your black belt and above, and all this yield space to a higher belt and blah blah blah... makes people like me roll my eyes in disgust. If my instructor in BJJ was supposed to be referred to as sir, or if we're all supposed to shout yes sir like were in the military, it just takes away from the quality of the training.

[ovine king]

so you are basing all of this on your experience of a place you attended when you were younger and one that you know to be bogus?

what you call the guy who teaches doesn't have any bearing on what is being taught.

some of it is just tradition.

every style has some sort of tradition and some have more than others.

whether you bow, shake hands or whatever, makes no difference to the training.

this is probably good time to remind people that bowing is the norm in japanese culture and like it or not, karate is japanese.

you ask; why can't you just shake hands?

i ask, why do the japanese styles have to adopt the shaking of hands into it's custom?

in anycase, you are reading too much into the act of bowing and associating with it, things from a western point of view.

it's not putting the instructor on any sort of pedestal.

the same with sensei and master.

firstly, sensei simply means teacher (or something approximate.... the langauges don't relate very well) and 'master' is something that the western world introduced to the martial arts world.

in it's use in the context o the native languge, sensei and sifu is simply the same as the use of sir or professor or doctor or chef or chief engineer or whatever other work/proffesional title.

sensei/sifu does not mean master.

so the bjj classes don't tend to be as strict as some other styles.

so what?

what's wrong with a little formality?

the average class lasts what, two hours? (at least i hope......)

can't you for two hours let go of your ego somewhat and follow a little custom/tradition?

ok.. before this gets removed, i'm not asking you directly, i'm being general here.

the point is, those things, like i said, have no bearing on the thing being taught so why do people use these points as a way to bash some styles?

why does having these things make it worse than a style that doesn't?

by the same token, do you think that bjj is the only style out there in which people are informal, mess around, swear and what not?

would karate be instantly better if it removed it's traditionl customs?

would bjj be instantly worse if it instilled some of the japanese traditional customs?

[Gumbi]

You cant train BJJ and NOT be a humble guy- its inevitable that you're going to be getting your * kicked for a long time before you can start kicking *.

As far as the title master is concerned, dogs have masters, people have instructors. Whats wrong with me checking my ego at the door for 2 hours and calling someone by a special title? Well, whats wrong with them checking their ego and saying "just call me Jimbo"

I think the problem with calling people master and such is that it really seperates the student and the teacher. Boxers dont call their coaches by special titles, and neither do wrestlers- we KNOW the talent these teachers possess and respect it because we're there working hard day in and day out and listening to everything they have to say.

I honostly think the people who insist that they be called master, sensei, you name it have an inferiority complex or are otherwise not very sure of themselves. I've heard of schools where black belts had to be addressed as Mr or sir, only to have 10 of them be under the age of 18.

[aefibird]

Please remember to keep your posts polite, respectful and on topic.

Thank you.

Good luck with your Judo class Seersin!