Have you ever heard about a student failing a belt test?

[Why_Worry]

That would be great if that actually happened. I'm only an orange belt but if i aws an instructor and that happened, i wouldnt have let him get past like orange or green belt with that attitude. I mean TOO HOT???? What kinda thing is that to say at karate class. I wouldn't even let someone like that test if i were an instructor. If especially a black belt complained it was too hot, i would say ok, and go over and turn off the fans and if they complain again, i would turn on the heater if there is one. I would jus tmake this person work extremely hard. So no, htis person would deffinitely fail their test.

[24fightingchickens]

I think part of learning karate is the mental aspect you should be learning every day. As a compliment to learning focus, you also should be learning to channel your own emotions.

I disagree with this because in my experience, I have never seen anyone learn to manage their emotions because of martial arts training. I have seen people learn this by getting religious, working rehab programs, having spiritual experiences, seeing a therapist regularly... all motivated by having some life changing experience that caused them to truly question how they live and how they manage their minds and hearts.

I have never seen any evidence to convince me that people sign up for karate and after a decade they are able to manage their emotions. Especially considering the way the bigwigs of the karate world act toward one another and the political power games they play in their organizational schemes.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I'm saying I set that "channeling emotions" bar pretty high and I've never seen someone use martial arts to jump it before.

This, unfortunately, can be true, but it shouldn't be. If this is the case in a school, someone isn't learning consistency, starting with the black belts. But that's no reason to throw out a belt system, it just means the black belts in that school need to shape up.

I'm afraid I disagree with this as well. Individuals cannot be held to a physical standard, because people do not come in standards. Instructors have always tested students in a farcical fashion because we, as the teachers, have known all along what would happen on the test. We determined the outcome before the test began.

I do not know what you mean by the black belts needing to shape up. My philosophy for doing karate does not include putting responsibilities on senior students. They come to class for whatever reasons, and I try to leave them be.

If a school is having this problem, there is a problem with the school.

That doesn't match with my experience either. People simply do not like to fail karate tests. IAnd they tend to quit. Even karate clubs in Japan rarely fail their students. I've seen it in both countries.

There should always be that threat of failure, otherwise your system loses it's integrity. It's like a spoiled child that always gets his way.

This is the point I was trying to get across, and unfortunately, this is not done. Clubs need money. Students bring it. Failing students chases them off. That's it. Even a club operated for free, as I operated mine, still experienced extremely high churn as a result of my taking belt tests more seriously than students and failing them because I let them test even if I thought they weren't ready.

No offense, but I think the problem here is obvious. Number 1. don't experiment on students, just be honest. If they fail a test, then they fail. If they pass, they pass. Number 2. if you were going to experiment with them, don't tell them what you're doing. Right there they've got ammunition against you and I wouldn't blame them for using it on you. In the end what they want is consistency and fairness. It looks like you gave them neither.

I think you are wrong there. I told them in advance that there was going to be a "practice test" in which they would all practice getting failing grades. I told them exactly what I was doing and when I would do it. I was open and honest about it. The tests in JKA Shotokan last all of five to ten minutes long. It is not a grueling ten hour experience. At the end of class, I put them through tests, and then I failed them all.

The point was to teach them to accept failure. And even this farcical exercise caused some beginners to quit and others to complain about "labeling."

I don't see anything dishonest with that. But it does expose a fundamental truth that I believe in about people - they don't like being told they are not good at something that they do for a hobby, and they don't like negative feedback.

24Fighting chickens - I mean the utmost respect in my post. I don't know you or wish to judge you - but you gave the most thoughtful response I've read in a while.

Meaning respect and showing respect are two different things. I believe you did judge me, but that's OK. I don't care.

[Why_Worry]

I experimented for a time with handing out F's on tests to my students like crazy, to see what would happen. Even though I told the students that I was going to fail all but one of them, several people still became so angry that they were ready to quit rather than take the 5 minute test again a couple of weeks later. As I remember, they did quit, despite an hour long counseling session in which I explained to them the purpose was to give them failing experience so they wouldn't freak out if they failed in the future. I explained it would purify our relationship for us to both know I would only give them objective, true results as I truly saw them, and that they would benefit from this by knowing that there was no political motivation behind their promotions.

lol, thats really funny but its a great idea as well. My school does belt test in private during class and you might not even relaize the person is testing in another room till they walk back in with one of the two senseis and they call them to the front of the class. Cause the two senseis are married (to each other) and have to watch after kids or do work so they arent always at classes. But if the school i go to did tests like that i would actually really relaly like it. It makes it so you have to becoem very proficient for each belt and owrk for it. If there were maybe like 2-5 tets per year for each belt or maybe less then it woudl be really good as only one person would be promoted. I actually really realyl like that idea to be honest. Thats cool, too bad you cant keep doing it because of their attitudes.

[Pralgo]

If a student that is being tested has an attitude problem, a Shodan-ho rank can be given. Basically a shodan, with a white stripe.

Another way to go about it, is to give him an attitude ajdustment. If he is a testing for black belt, just put him up against someone that is more seasoned.

In my Father's DOJO we had a prospective black belt with an attitude problem. At first the solution, was to make him fight me in the Kumite part of the test, and put him in his place. Instead, we grilled him on his bunkai after he completed his KATA portion of the test. It made him very nervous to have to explain each and every technique in front of 100 or so people, and got our point across. He shaped up afterwards.

[Master Yoshi]

I failed at a ni dan test because i couldn't do a chikodachi during a kata. Besides belts means nothing. The use of belts in karate was imposed by teh Japanese when they tried to organize the karate system from Okinawa. The uniform used in karate is actually the judo uniform. The grandmaster and head of the organization of teh system that I study said that if you don't train the only use that the belt has is to hang yourself with it on a tree. I told him that it also was very useful to keep your pants from falling but he replied that a pice of rope works also.

[angus88]

I do not know what you mean by the black belts needing to shape up. My philosophy for doing karate does not include putting responsibilities on senior students. They come to class for whatever reasons, and I try to leave them be.

Well I guess I should first ask - who is teaching karate in your school if not the black belts? And if the black belts are all teaching the same thing in the same way, there shouldn't be any question on a belt test whether something is right or wrong on a test. In other words, subjectivity is bound to happen, but you can keep it to a minimum if the people teaching are on the same page.

I think you are wrong there. I told them in advance that there was going to be a "practice test" in which they would all practice getting failing grades.

Guess I read you wrong originally then. For some reason I was picturing a normal test and at the end you telling your students that you're failing them just because they should know what it's like to fail. But I have to say - if someone quits because they failed a five minute test, I'd hold the door open for them.

But you're absolutely right about people (in America anyway) not taking criticism too well. In our school, people like that tend to quit eventually anyway. If you mix criticism with praise, kids can be conditioned to take it I think better than adults can.

Meaning respect and showing respect are two different things. I believe you did judge me, but that's OK. I don't care.

Try as I might, I have no response to this that could be described as anything other than scathingly sarcastic.

Have a good one.

[NidaninNJ]

I think I've only ever seen ONE test where everyone passed. That one seemed rigged by the way. All 5 people passed their 1- to 4-dan level black belt exams though I though maybe just one of them deserved even his present rank let alone the rank he was testing for.

I have heard that a few places just pass everyone to keep them paying. But I don't go to those places so I can't say anything but about some of the traditional Shotokan places I've been.

I think if nobody ever fails then how can you be sure that the people who passed deserved it?

[Menjo]

Fortunatly i have, but im frustrated with how things are running in the MA community, however i guess i just have to live with it.

[Mink]

I have seen only few fail, in our club.

the instructors only hand out to those whom he thinks are ready to pass to the next level.

but even instructors every so often make a misstake and have to fail a student.

shodan, or black belt gradings are different in kyokushin you train between 4-6 years to become a black belt, and in the last 12 months from 1st kyu to the shodan grading there is a large drop out rate i have known over 80 1st kyus come through our club and yet we have only 27 blackbelts. shodan grading starts from the time you are a 1st kyu. the grading day for those whom have been to a kyokushin grading is very difficult and very rewarding once over.

once you start a shodan grading you dont walk out , you push....Osu!

[sabro]

My 13 year old son failed his green belt test. He just suddenly felt sick and dropped out. I know however that our sensei will only ask you to test if they know you will pass.