Have you ever heard about a student failing a belt test?

[Takeda Shingen]

If a good sensei only tests you when you are ready...why not just give you the belt and skip the test? also, isn't there such a thing as "choking on game day"...or having the requisite technical skill for the grade, but poor attitude?

Osu.

TS

[karatekid1975]

Takeda Shingen, that's what happened to me. I "choked" on my test.

[24fightingchickens]

A good teacher let you test when he knows you can do it.

Thereby invalidating the need for the test itself except as a farcical ritual or rite of passage designed to do little other than convince the student himself that he is ready for a new rank.

In reality, ranks are awarded based on subjective opinion. The test serves to create an objective-appearing frame of references from which the teacher can bestow ranks willy-nilly upon his students without appearing to simply hand them out.

Also, low failure rates are polluted by corruption. Since many students quit following the humiliation of failing a test, most karate clubs prefer to pass their students and keep their rent money. You can detect that this is happening when you see teachers holding students back until they are sure they are ready.

The consequences of failure are worse for the teacher and the club than the student.

I experimented for a time with handing out F's on tests to my students like crazy, to see what would happen. Even though I told the students that I was going to fail all but one of them, several people still became so angry that they were ready to quit rather than take the 5 minute test again a couple of weeks later. As I remember, they did quit, despite an hour long counseling session in which I explained to them the purpose was to give them failing experience so they wouldn't freak out if they failed in the future. I explained it would purify our relationship for us to both know I would only give them objective, true results as I truly saw them, and that they would benefit from this by knowing that there was no political motivation behind their promotions.

I have come to believe that people want their belt ranks to be political. Most do not care why they get them, they just want them for whatever reason, even if they obviously screw up on a test. I have only ever had one student tell me he refused to accept a promotion because he was not happy with his performance, and he was wrong, he had done great. He was just depressed.

Belt tests are loaded with all sorts of problems. I prefer not to have them with my students of karate, and instead simply ask them to amass hours of training and then assess their skill on my own and hand out belts in private.

[Fairfax_Uechi]

One thing I didn't see listed here is that some styles don't have formal testing requirements for colored belts, but a very formal procedure for the Dan ranks. So some instructors use the color belt testing as a way for the lower ranked students to get used to the process and feel comfortable for when they test for Shodan. Put up students when they are ready. Sure some fail due to choking, but it's very rare in the environment that I describe.

[Why_Worry]

Were i go, it snot really about getting to know the techniques well for the next belt although you do need to know them but not really well. What kinda happens is that you need to learn a a little bit of a certain skill for each belt, like orange belt is awareness and you need to make sure you are looking before you turn or notice whats going on, and green belt is power. And there is stuff liek that so you arent gonna be tested unless you knwot hat stuff and to know that stuff your not really gonna need to think so just so long as you know the techniques work and go and can perform the katas after having ot do 100 of each kata at home (so yoiu better know them after that) you should pretty much be fine.

[shotochem]

A good teacher let you test when he knows you can do it.

Thereby invalidating the need for the test itself except as a farcical ritual or rite of passage designed to do little other than convince the student himself that he is ready for a new rank.

In reality, ranks are awarded based on subjective opinion. The test serves to create an objective-appearing frame of references from which the teacher can bestow ranks willy-nilly upon his students without appearing to simply hand them out. .

True which is why I 've decided not to subject myself anymore. Whenever I step on the floor my personal skill is evident. The belt will not make me any better or any worse. I wish I had realized this sooner as it is quite a bit of a stress reliever.

I have recently visited a couple of dojos at the request of a friend to train a couple of classes. I walked in wearing my old whitebelt and had a blast.

I have experienced alot of the Japanophelia and suedo-asian Japanese wanna be stuff that I used to laugh aboult while reading. I realized I was taking this stuff way too seriously and it is time to start to enjoy life again.

Pretty belts and other insignificant nonsense is only a small part of life. Its about time I cut back and spent more time with the wife and kids.

[Takeda Shingen]

karatekid1975: So you said you "choked'. I did not mean it that way...but sometimes you freeze, have a lapse, whatever. But you have the skill, Sensei knows you were ready..how did she/he handle it..what was it that did not give you a pass?...no probation? or re-test?

Osu.

TS

[karatekid1975]

I got the "ok" to re-rest (in November). But it was because I "lapsed." I had a brain fart on my forms, and I did only 2 out of 5 breaks (two boards at each station).

My instructor wasn't happy, but we both agreed that I didn't do well. I knew I blew it after I did my forms.

[angus88]

Thereby invalidating the need for the test itself except as a farcical ritual or rite of passage designed to do little other than convince the student himself that he is ready for a new rank.

Not necessarily. I think part of learning karate is the mental aspect you should be learning every day. As a compliment to learning focus, you also should be learning to channel your own emotions. Testing is also a test of that. You should be able to demonstrate everything you know in karate under any circumstance. Just as you should be able to demonstrate your karate if you're attacked.

In reality, ranks are awarded based on subjective opinion. The test serves to create an objective-appearing frame of references from which the teacher can bestow ranks willy-nilly upon his students without appearing to simply hand them out.

This, unfortunately, can be true, but it shouldn't be. If this is the case in a school, someone isn't learning consistency, starting with the black belts. But that's no reason to throw out a belt system, it just means the black belts in that school need to shape up.

Since many students quit following the humiliation of failing a test, most karate clubs prefer to pass their students and keep their rent money. You can detect that this is happening when you see teachers holding students back until they are sure they are ready.

If a school is having this problem, there is a problem with the school. In my experience this has only been the case with students that probably shouldn't be there in the first place. If a karate student is worth teaching, he will be learning humility along the way as well. Again, if he's not learning that it's either the fault of his instructor, or the kid isn't right for karate.

There's simply no reason to set up a student to fail, but not to say that can't be an option if the student totally screws up his test. There should always be that threat of failure, otherwise your system loses it's integrity. It's like a spoiled child that always gets his way.

I experimented for a time with handing out F's on tests to my students like crazy, to see what would happen. Even though I told the students that I was going to fail all but one of them, several people still became so angry that they were ready to quit rather than take the 5 minute test again a couple of weeks later. As I remember, they did quit, despite an hour long counseling session in which I explained to them the purpose was to give them failing experience so they wouldn't freak out if they failed in the future. I explained it would purify our relationship for us to both know I would only give them objective, true results as I truly saw them, and that they would benefit from this by knowing that there was no political motivation behind their promotions.

No offense, but I think the problem here is obvious. Number 1. don't experiment on students, just be honest. If they fail a test, then they fail. If they pass, they pass. Number 2. if you were going to experiment with them, don't tell them what you're doing. Right there they've got ammunition against you and I wouldn't blame them for using it on you. In the end what they want is consistency and fairness. It looks like you gave them neither.

Belt tests are loaded with all sorts of problems. I prefer not to have them with my students of karate, and instead simply ask them to amass hours of training and then assess their skill on my own and hand out belts in private.

I guess if that solves your problems then that's that. Frankly, I think that would look a lot more suspicious than a belt test that someone may or may not have deserved to pass. But that's just me.

24Fighting chickens - I mean the utmost respect in my post. I don't know you or wish to judge you - but you gave the most thoughtful response I've read in a while.

Cheers!

[Takeda Shingen]

Osu topic members: You make the call: Do you pass him?

The student is ready for shodan, but has some slight attitude problems. Making faces at Sensei when corrected. Argumentative with respect to proper stances, techniques. Complaining to other members about the instruction, kata being taught, kihon is too kihon, and wanting more kumite. Everyone else is good with the class.

Sensei tells the student that technically he is there, but also politely admonishes the student about the attitude. Student seizas stone-faced not saying a word.

Come test day, the student goes about his usual attitude; even to the point of complaining - even though the fans are on - that the air conditioner should be turned on because it is hot.

After a fairly gruelling three hour exam, technically, the student performs at a fairly suffcient level to consider shodan, but the sempai are split in their opinion when queried by Sensei - citing - well, the attitude problems.

You are the Sensei. Sore ja...You make the call.

Osu.

Kore wa katjikenai.

TS