Do you still remember and practice the early kata?

[cathal]

Well korin your hyperbole notwithstanding I feel that the training and quality of your katas shuld dictate how much you know. Then again, focusing on 2-3 katas seems a little narrow. Afterall it would be like a soldier only learning to fire a rifle rather than learning to fight with the bayonete on the end. Or an artist who only learned 2-3 styles of art (e.g. impressionist), where there are many.

In my opinion we should learn the katas of our style, and use it as a base of our knowledge. But our ultimate goal should be to master each kata, as Master Funakoshi did.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Ok, point taken 2-3 was a bit of an hyperbole but you know what I mean. The number of katas around in Okinawa 150-200 years ago were probably less than half of what's out there today.

No, I would still argue that there were more kata back then in "circulation" then there are now. We've only got the "main ones" taught by various teachers due to the implementation of a rigid style system by the Japanese (and ego and money had some role to play in this, sadly).

On top of that, schools or teachers were not as open as they are today, they were very private and students were selectively chosen, usually coming from family, friends or friends of family. How much information was shared? How many techniques and katas did one "school" have access to? Perhaps not until karate was more public and students had multiple teachers did studying more and more katas become the norm. (Anyone know any good books on this?)

No, once again, back then, people had way more teachers than they do now. Nowadays, there is this ridiculous stigma (in the eyes of many "traditional" martial artists) placed upon people who train under different teachers. In those days (only a matter of a few decades ago, I might add), people truly did go around to many teachers for various things, even traveling to Taiwan (Formosa back then) and China. Again, in reality, they probably had more access to kata, not less. Sorry for continuing to stick on this point, but it's something I would like to emphasize.

As far as good books on this sort of thing, the best book would be John Sell's Unante: The Secrets of Karate (2nd edition). It is the best book on karate history and development in English. I do NOT say that lightly. Get it from https://www.martialsource.com. It's about 55 dollars, but it can perhaps be the bible for karate history enthusiasts. He critically analyzes things, tells you which things are recorded fact, which is oral passing down, and which is most likely just a myth. If you check in his bibliography, he uses many of the definitive sources out there in Japanese (such as Uechi's landmark book).

Anyways, I think more time on fewer katas is the way to go. I think that although they are a very useful tool, students can survive without the Pinans/Heians in their later karate studies. Though I don't advocate forgetting them all together.

I do agree with you here in some part. I simply practice them because it is "easier" to isolate the few main principles they do have, as much of the advanced ones have so many things "going on" at once. That, and it is part of my system, and as I plan to teach, I wish to excel at them. But I agree with you on principle. They were simplified kata outwardly (and to some extent, inwardly) watered down to make them easier and less obviously lethal. But as I and others have mentioned before, if a master does the Pinan kata, are they truly "beginner's kata"?

PS. I was trying to think of the name of the guy who only learned the Naifuhanchi (sp?) when he was young. (Okinawan history) The teacher who taught him Naifuhanchi refused to teach him any more after he found out he was street fighting. Choshin Chotubu? nicknamed Monkey boy. Something like that, Shorin-ryu students might know. Perhaps a good case in point.

I think Motobu is a good case for your argument. However, I find it incredibly unlikely that he only learned the Naihanchi kata. For one thing, he knew more than one version of it, as he taught several versions. He has also written published material detailing and describing many features of various kata, suggesting that he had an even wider knowledge of kata than the legend around him states. It is certainly much, much easier nowadays to know about a kata you've never practiced then it was back then. He's also been known to have recognized many kata by simply seeing them performed, something most people who have never done the kata before are not necessarily able to do. But the belief that he only knew Naihanchi probably stems from the fact that he felt all you needed to know was Naihanchi and that it was a complete system in and of itself (something he stated about the Passai and Rohai kata as well). I believe there is also a Motobu (Choki) version of Passai as well. But you're right, he probably knew less kata than most, but I would say more than the Naihanchi.

[JimmyNewton]

I dont know if this is a thing of maturity on my part, but when i was younger (22), I didnt have the appreciation or approach kata with the seriousness as i do now. 27 now.

Maybe its coming into a greater understanding. Maybe its added wisdom with age, not sure. whatever the case is, my apprach to kata deeper than when I was younger. I tend to think that most younger people want to focus on sparring, fast kicks, etc.. just my opnion though.

[papaschtroumpf]

furniture can be moved. do you not have a backyard or garage, or driveway? even if you cannot perfomr the kata as you would at 100% as far as power, speed, proper spaceing, etc. you can stil go through the basic patterns in minimal space. i'm ure your wife would unerstand if a piece of furniture is moved for an hour. mine does

Do you have a yard? I practice in my back yard and side yard whenever I get a chance.

I do have a yard but it's too soggy to use, although that time of the year is coming again!

Even with the furniture moved, I only have room for one step back or forward and sort of enough room for a turn, so I still can't practice an entire kata.

That doesn't mean I can't practice, I just can't practice an entire kata from end to finish. I found it detrimental to practice a kata "piecemeal" so when I have limited room I practice combinations of moves that require no more than one step back or forward. There are lots of combinations that can be done in that little space and it's still great practice. Sensei is always full of ideas of new combinations to do and some of them can combine pretty intricate sequences of blocks, punches and kicks, I've started to think of some of those as "pocket kata". You can still practice that fast or slow, etc...

I travel a lot for business to and those are also good to do in a hotel room, especially since a lot of them have a full length mirror wher you can check your form.

I still would love to be able to practice full katas at lunch though

[JimmyNewton]

any suggestions on some good martial arts books other than Bubishi? Accurate history, philosphies, Bunkai, etc.

Let me know if you can,

Thanks

jn

[cathal]

Gichin Funakoshi's "My Life" and for philosphy "Ki and the Way of the Martial Arts" by Kenji Tokisu (get our your dictionary for that one...but it's agreat read).

[JimmyNewton]

"my life" is going to be in my collection soon.

thank you.

[korin]

Thanks for all of the feedback. Food for thought. I'll a take a look around for that book. BTW, Shorin Ryuu, I was looking at getting Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques by Mark Bishop have you read it?

Atleast for me, at the moment all of this is a moot point. I've only been practicing karate for just over two years and I work on my Pinans and Naihanchis with fervor. I've only just started an easier "BB kata" (Jiin) for my shodan grading next year.

I have had feelings of contempt for more advanced classmates who can't remember their Pinans, but I've also been thinking about what I was talking about before. I guess we'll talk about this again the next time the question is posed.

Until then,

cathal - wasn't advocating only learning only 2-3 katas, just asking how many do we need, how many can we really maintain well, and do we need to keep the Pinans in our practice routines once we've passed that point. think about it. later

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yeah, that is a pretty good book, although there is some bias here and there.

As I mentioned in other threads, if you really want an authoritative, definitive book on the history of karate, get Unante: The Secrets of Karate, 2nd ed. by John Sells.

The Mark Bishop book is still good. But for depth you can't find elsewhere (in English), get the John Sells book.

Edit: Okay, so I've said the same thing even in this thread before...my bad.

[Oahngoji]

You don't really have to remember the katas and kihons, because if you pratice a lot and know the functions of the moves, then you should always have it stored in your mind.