Just how old is Tang Soo Do?

[JaseP]

How long had Grandmaster Hwrang studied Taiji for when he created our style? I hear that it takes ten years to master which makes it sound very complicated.

Juan.

sorry, but can anyone answer me this?

Anything that takes ten years to master isn't a complete style.

(Hint: You can't master Tai Chi in ten years)

He studied from the Yang family from about `36 to about `45 I believe., while in China. He was already considered somewhat of an expert in kwon bop at age 22 in 1936 when he left for China...

What he studied was probably not Tai Chi in the way we think of it now... it was more than likely a blend of many Chinese martial arts with a tai chi influence. It was in China that he picked up the form that he would call taegukkwan. That form is reported to be 1/2 of Yang Style Tai Chi #88, a two person form... and serves as the last form in Tang Soo Do.

[juan Kerr]

oh, I thought he returned to Korea in 1937 and only returned to Japanese Manchuria in 1941.

[Akima]

Jase,

Why are the stances and techniques in TSD and TKD both so much like Shotokan?

Why are the forms the same ( or in the case of TKD the patterns)?

As I recall, Kee trained in shotokan before leaving occupied Korea before taking up Chinese arts in the 1920's while working in China.

I really think you need to look into other sources of history rather than rely on the history according the Korean masters. Not that their histories do no have value, but they really are just one side of the issue.

[JaseP]

Jase,

Why are the stances and techniques in TSD and TKD both so much like Shotokan?

Why is the Chunbe position in the Bassai's so much like the Chinese empty hand salute??? Why is a side punch in a side stance found in virtually every art..

BTW, the stances AREN'T like they are in Shotokan. In Shotokan there is a marked outward turn in the rear foot, as well as a bent knee there. The low block in Shotokan is executed from around the height of the sternum,... and in Tang Soo Do comes from the opposite ear... The "classical" center chop defense in Shotokan is executed by crossing the hands to fold. In Tang Soo Do, the hands wrap around the body and unwrap together in the same direction... emphasizing hip rotation. I have no knowledge of any heel down/toe up stances in any Japanese art,... yet they exist in Tang Soo Do, and did from early in its history.

I won't even go into the kicks...

Why are the forms the same ( or in the case of TKD the patterns)?

The Okinawan form set was borrowed from Shotokan after Hwa Soo Do was being taught at the Moo Duk Kwan... Prior to that there was a decided lack of Forms training in the Moo Duk Kwan (kwon bop had few if any forms and all forms were essentially created or borrowed).

As I recall, Kee trained in shotokan before leaving occupied Korea before taking up Chinese arts in the 1920's while working in China.

Hwang,... Kee was his first name if you westernize it...

Who was his instructor in Shotokan??? Can you name him???

You cannot. He doesn't exist. Hwang had no instructor in Shotokan,... ever... He did however attend a few seminars at the Chung Moo Kwan, I think it was... But this was after he was already teaching... He was never a student there. The Moo Duk Kwan was established in late 1945 or early 1946... And those seminars were supposed to have occured around that time. Too early for Hwang to have been trained in Japanese arts after returning from China, and too late to justify him being considered an expert before leaving for China, to return and open a school...

I really think you need to look into other sources of history rather than rely on the history according the Korean masters. Not that their histories do no have value, but they really are just one side of the issue.

There's no issue. No sources other than the Korean can give any evidence of Hwang's story...

Can the Japanese sources give me a lineage as to who the supposed instructor of Hwang Kee was??? Why is it claimed that he trained in Shotokan when training in martial arts by Koreans was forbiden under the pain of death???

The only evidence of it happening was an isolated few young men who were house-boys and such and were trained by their Japanese overlords. Hwang wasn't a houseboy... Nobody can name a person who is alledged to have taught him... He had no reason to conceal decent treatment by a Japanese person...

It all lends creedance to his story. So again,... who was Hwang's alledged Shotokan instructor???

[juan Kerr]

He was already considered somewhat of an expert in kwon bop at age 22 in 1936 when he left for China...

Who considered him an expert -afterall, he hadn't even been instructed in any Korean MA before he went to China according to his account. He only copied the Teakkyon (if that's what it was) fighter (master?).

[JaseP]

Who considered him an expert -afterall, he hadn't even been instructed in any Korean MA before he went to China according to his account. He only copied the Teakkyon (if that's what it was) fighter (master?).

Apparently he had a reputation in his villiage/area/whatever as knowing martial arts... I assume that he competed in impromptu sparring contests (as opposed to street brawls), being that taekyon was supposedly a competition sport as well as a self-defense method.

Whatever the story there, nobody batted an eye at him opening a martial arts school when he came back from China.

There are some who claim that you didn't need much in the way of martial arts background in those days to claim to be a teacher... I dispute this, however,... as Hwang apparently worked out with people from Lee Kuk Won's school to improve the Japanese forms he was convinced to add... and only did that for 6 mos. You don't learn an entire form set of some 23 forms in 6 mos. training without any prior experience.

[Akima]

I never said techniques are exactly the same. But at basic level they are too similar to discount a connection.

I have never found a reference to Kee having a shotokan teacher. He did admit to studying a book on Japanese Karate. I find it difficult to believe that he picked up all the details of Karate from a book . Let assume he did, it still means that he based much of the style on Japanese Karate. Most likely Shotokan.

Why would he hide learning from a Kind Japanese person? becuase to admit that anything in his style was not purely Korean would be Political suicide for his school.

And During the occupation, not only was learning Japanese arts illegal, so was practicing anything Korean! In fact, that was even more dangerous because as part of the assimilation of culture, the Japanese banned everything Korean.

"Tang Soo Do has its roots in Korean Kwon Bop"..."He was already considered somewhat of an expert in kwon bop at age 22 in 1936 "

How is this possible? Kwan Bop is the "boxing section" of the Muye Dobo Tong Ji. Kee discover this maunual in 1957. This is also the same section that references Subahk. So how can this art be based on something the founder discovered say 20 years after creating the art? It was this discovery that led to Kee changing the name of the art to Soo Bahk Do. What did he base TSD on before then? Whatever it was, sure looks like Karate. It is unlikely he learned any chinese style, when after 1931 Manchuria was under the control the Japanese. And if he did, why are a majority of TSD techniques hard style?

Kee, did incorporate matierial from the Muye Dobo Tong Ji into MDK/TSD, but he did so long after TSD had be established as being Japanse Karate with Korean style kicking.

[TSDforChrist]

There are a few minor problems with that argument. Firstly, Kwon Bup is "fist method". Just as we presently use the term "martial arts", "Kwon Bup" may refer to any empty-handed fighting style. The Kwon Bup section of the MYDBTJ is not everything that Kwon Bup is any more than an article cataloging the techniques of TKD is everything that every Korean martial art is.

Secondly, the fact that GM Hwang added the forms from Shotokan, from a book means nothing other than the fact that those particular forms are based on Shotokan. Note that I say based on, not taken from. The fundamental movement and executions of the technique are different - you get the same final movements, but we get to that point rather differently that Shotokan practitioners do, as Master Powelette mentioned earlier. The addition of forms interpereted from the MYDBTJ later was simply expedient - we now have forms that are Korean in nature, not simply in execution.

And thirdly, in Korea especially, reputation plays an extremely large role in estimation of skill - far more so than documentation during the time discussed. A friend of mine (Minor explanation - I go to Bible college, so no it is not unusual for someone this old to be going to school with me. We were friends before I knew of martial arts expereince he had, he never made it past 1st Dan from military training, and I only recently discovered his connection to MDK TSD) that I go to school with, trained IN THE RAILROAD DOJANG, IN SEOUL, until he could no longer afford formal training. He made this comment regarding training in martial arts in Korea as a boy (paraphrased): "We had nothing else. Nothing to do. I trained in the Moo Duk Kwan until my family could not afford it, I could not afford it. Then my friends showed me what they learned. I knew they were good - we all knew who was good and who was not. All we did for fun was fight. We would go out into the street, and see who was better. It was always important, to know who was better. It mattered between us, and if you were better you had a chance. If you were good, everyone knew it. If you were always good, you always proved it. Once enough people knew, and you could prove it against everybody, then you had a future. Paople would come up to you, and say "you are good. I will pay you to make me good." And we had nothing else. Many of my classmates died, trying to take apart unexploded bombs for the money the scrap metal would bring...(he went into a long digression on bombs here)...So if everyone knew you were good, and respected you, you could teach, and make money. So being good helped you not starve."

So, ability and reputation had much to do with being considered an "expert", or simply good enough to teach. It evidently didn't take much to prove oneself, and once proven, one was considered "good".

I would also like to disagree that TSD looks anything like Karate.

Just because the MYDBTJ material was not incorporated until later does not mean that it was the sole source of Korean technique, either. The great find of the MYDBTJ was not in that it provided new technique, or execution, but enabled GM Hwang to interperet Hyung. It validated the forms practice, as there was none until the borrowed Shotokan forms. Almost as if saying "see, this principle is here, and now we have Korean forms to practice. So it's ok that we have been doing Shotokan forms in a Korean manner, because there is a precendent for form work, not just free exercise."

Hope that helps clear some things up!

In Christ,

Phil

[JaseP]

Thanks Phil,... that was some great insight into the age when Hwang first started teaching...

[Akima]

TSD is an off shoot of Karate, specifically shotokan. If you cannot see the similarities in the styles then you are probably not learning TSD.

May I ask if either of you are associated with any of the TSD federations? Jase, It looks like you are associated with WTSDF.