Just how old is Tang Soo Do?

[kickcatcher]

Tang Soo Do can be traced back to the Kokuryo Dynasty in Korea (37 to 668 AD). It continued to be taught and develop during the Silla (668 to 935 AD), Ko Ryo (935 to 1392 AD), and Yi (1392 to 1907 AD) Dynasties.

from: http://www.jtpowlette.com/about_tang_soo_do.html

Is there any credible link betweenm TSD and whatever the Koreans were doing in 36AD?

[JaseP]

Yeah,... this stone relief of Kwon Bop, dating back to the Kokuryo Dynasty, depicting a low palm block and a high defense...

http://www.jtpowlette.com/Histor10.jpg

[Akima]

I have been Korea, and that stone carving could be a guy doing Tai chi.

Considering that all of TSD forms are taken from Karate, I don't buy that it's that old.

Did Koreans have ancient forms of MA, yes every civiliation does in some way. Is it anything like modern Korean arts...NO

[JaseP]

Tang Soo Do incorporates Tai Chi at its later levels,... the last form in Tang Soo Do is Taegukkwan, the Korean word for Tai Chi. It is essentially one persons part of the two person Yang Style Tai Chi form #88. The Muye Dobo Tongji states that there were essentially two "styles" in ancient Korea, internal school and external school, and that the techniques of them were intermittantly taught, lost, and rediscovered over the centuries.

That the carving could be Tai chi??? The carving could be the guy serving a Croissant,.. but given the scary look on the guy's face, I doubt it, and I very clearly recognize the block he is doing and it appears in Chinese, Korean and Japanese forms of martial arts. Rember that Tai Chi is a martial art, not just health exercise, and in Korea before WWII, there were no style names. Martial arts were called Kwon Bop or "fist fighting method" and was a fairly general term. They were borrowed from all over, including China (which, I don't need to remind you, was physically connected to the Korean Penninsula), and flavored with native Korean techniques. The fact that a tomb of that era shows that martial arts were practiced that far back shows the connection. The fact that the techniques shown are still practiced, and in exactly that same hand technique combination, shows the connection. It's a low palm block and a high block, an it appears in no less than 3 Korean forms and 2 Japanese/Okinawan forms that are used in Tang Soo Do.

And,...

Actually all Tang Soo Do forms are NOT taken from karate,...

The Chil Song, Yuk Ro, Hwa Sun, Taegukkwan (as previously mentioned), Sip Se, all are not karate forms.

The Giechu forms are not from Karate, they were developed by Hwang Kee to introduce basic concepts. They were absorbed into TaeKwonDo from the Moo Duk Kwan members who broke off in the mid 1960s.

The forms that were taken from Shotokan are : the Pyung-Ahn (Heian) set, Bassai set (Bassai So and Dae), Naihanchi set, Sip Su, Jin Do (Jinto), Lo Hi, Kong Sang Koon, Sei Shan, Wong Shu, Jion, and Oh Sip Sa Bo. They were familiar and easy to learn, and that's why they were added to Tang Soo Do.

In addition, some people know So Rim Jang Kwan, which is a Chinese long fist form...

Tang Soo Do is a mixture of Korean and Chinese martial arts with some borrowed Japanese/Okinawan forms. And since Okinawan forms were taken from Chinese forms, and Okinawan styles have since borrowed Korean kicks,... the circle is somewhat complete...

The Korean martial arts of the Kokuryo Dynasty don't have to be done exatcly as they are today for there to be a connection... Boxers of 150 years ago would not recognize boxing of today as the same sport... There is some "evolution" that takes place, as well as cross polination. That doesn't make the statement that the art traces its origins that far back any less true,... anymore than it would be to say that it can trace its history back 10,000 years to the age of early systematic development, where primitive cultures realized that if they hit with this or kicked with that that it would do damage...

[juan Kerr]

I'm confused how that stone proves that TSD is ancient. No offence but I thought our style was much newer.

It is nice to hear that our style has Taiji in it. How long had Grandmaster Hwrang studied Taiji for when he created our style? I hear that it takes ten years to master which makes it sound very complicated.

Juan.

[JaseP]

Tang Soo Do has its roots in Korean Kwon Bop. Korean martial arts have been called kwon bop, subak ki, tang su ki, etc. over the span of many years.

The Moo Duk Kwan is young,... which is what most people are referring to when they talk about Tang Soo Do being 50-60 years old... But that doesn't show an appreciation for the Korean martial arts and how they developed. You would say that the "style" of Moo Duk Kwan is 50-60 years old, but that the art is closer to the order of 2,000 years old...

It's the same thing with Christianity... Most people wouldn't argue against that Chrisianity is 2,000 years old... But the ways of the modern Church, in any of its forms, Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, are much younger. So you could say that Christianity is only 1,200 years old, or 600 years old,... or in the case of a new start-up church, that it's only 10-20 years old... My Church, the Moravian Church had its origins back to the 1580s... So in my case, you could say that Chrisianity is 425 years old... But some people might dispute the 1580s figure, and so say my Church is only 250 years old... If a 1st Century Christian was transplanted into a modern church setting, they would probably not recognize the the form of worship as being anything like what they encountered... Does that mean that modern faith is different???

It's the same for martial arts. People didn't have "styles" the way we do now many years ago. Martial arts were martial arts... names were interchangeable. Schools were a smattering of techniques. The affectation of "styles" is a modern thing. If you say that you will only count a thing as a style if it was taught exactly the way it is today,... then there are no schools who could claim ownership of an age of more than 90 years or so. Modern reconstructionists try to say that that this style or that is only XX number of years old, because they tie it to one person or to its modern form... But that's no more fair than saying that the Catholic Church is no more older than Vatican II...

The technques that compromise the art of Tang Soo Do date back to that stone carving. I recorgnize the techniques as something done even today,... not exactly (stance is different, for instance), but still very close. Not all of what is in Tang Soo Do is that old... But then again, not all of what is in modern Catholicism is that old either... That doesn't mean that the Church can't trace its roots back 2,000 years, and it doesn't mean that Tang Soo Do can't trace its roots that far back either.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

.....and Okinawan styles have since borrowed Korean kicks,... the circle is somewhat complete...

ACK!!! Please JaseP...do NOT lump all Okinawan systems into this catagory. The day Shorin Ryu higher ups tell me to start kicking like a Korean stylist is the day I quit! And that's not going to happen.

I've seen TKD/TSD kicks...lots of them from a lot of different black belts, and there is simply very little in common with how Korean systems execute a kick, and how we do them. Most noteably, we do not kick higher than the belly button...ever.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm "pouncing" on you, but I felt that line needed to be clarified so that there are no misunderstandings, and I actually took a bit of offense to that line personally.

[JaseP]

ACK!!! Please JaseP...do NOT lump all Okinawan systems into this catagory. The day Shorin Ryu higher ups tell me to start kicking like a Korean stylist is the day I quit! And that's not going to happen.

...

Sorry if it sounds like I'm "pouncing" on you, but I felt that line needed to be clarified so that there are no misunderstandings, and I actually took a bit of offense to that line personally.

I'm not saying that it is now part of curriculim, what I'm saying is that I've seen (quite a few) practitioners at tournaments, who are purportedly of okinawan/japanese styles and who execute TaeKwonDo or (and I do mean "or" ) Tang Soo Do style kicking...

If you are orthodox,... then you certainly wouldn't,... and I don't mean any offense. What I am talking about are mainstream compeititors,... and this is from observation only (things I've seen with my own eyes).

What I see of senior Dans in these styles is that they pretty much stick to tradition,... and the "stylistic" part of their styles. But the junior ones,... the mid 20 yr old set and younger,... and those in the tournament crowd,... whole different scenario...

...again, no offense intended.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Hey..no problemo! But I know if one of my students started doing that sort of kick...tournament or not...there'd be some explain' to do!

[JaseP]

Hey..no problemo! But I know if one of my students started doing that sort of kick...tournament or not...there'd be some explain' to do!

I admire that. Each style or system should have a trend of internal consistency... Which is why I'm not a huge fan of over-doing cross training or the so-called "ecclectic" arts.