Is TKD/TSD punching mechanically different from karate?

[kickcatcher]

Just curious, something someone said on another thread which I thought deserved a new thread.

I've done a few years of Karate training with/in several styles. I've also done a few years of TKD, again mixing widely with different groups.

I couldn’t detect any meaningful difference.

Obviously, exact mechanics vary greatly between sub-styles/orgs/clubs, and there are extreme variations… but by and large there is a significant common thread throughout. Add to that the habit of chambering the punch from the hip … is it at all likely that the TKD/TSD methods derived from a source other than karate.

I’d be curious to think what people think the differences are. And from there, trying to work out whether the diversion is post 1950s… or because of older Korean methods.

Some TKD clubs have an absolutely appalling ‘form’ of punching –with shoulders high, wrist misaligned etc –but I put that down to poor instruction and lack of meaningful face punching in training/sparring, facilitating the erosion of form.

But then again some ITF offshoots have adopted a more boxing like guard and punching engine (although I’ve yet to see any of these groups rival boxing for efficiency). But this diversion took place in the 1990s(?) and was more a reaction to kickboxing, along with people asking themselves “Why put the hand on the hip???”.

Some of the same ITF offshoots went down the road of following through with ‘pure’ form backfists, lateral chops and blocks… more closely resembling some kung fus. And their patterns consequently appear more kung fu like –but again, this is a relatively recent diversion. It is also something I’m seeing less of –the same ‘innovators’ seem to be shifting towards kickboxing, RBSD and MMA.

[JaseP]

I can't speak for TKD, but I can speak for Tang Soo Do, and the execution of punches is different from Tang Soo Do to karate. The difference in not in the position at chamber,... although the proper position for a formal chamber in TSD is not the hip but with the forearm parallel with the ground and fist in the middle of the rib cage. The major difference is the generation of power. What I've observed in karate is that power generation is often done with a hip "wiggle" (and this even at high levels, senior Dan holders, be it Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Goju, whatever). In Tang Soo Do, there is a decided hip "twist", driving the hip into the direction of the punch, rather than away from it. You see this more dramatically in the center chop guards found in forms. This hip rotation is usually driven into the student at an early level. It pervades all techniques, blocks, hand strikes, kicks, etc...

You need to keep in mind that Hwang Kee, founder of the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan never had a Japanese instructor (nor anyone who taught by a Japanese instructor as an instructor). As I've said in other posts, his only formal instructor was a Chinese man. While the techniques in Tang Soo Do superficially resemble karate, they aren't karate. What karate can be found in Tang Soo Do is as much a factor of style blending prior to WWII than anything else (with the exception of the "borrrowing" of the Okinawan form set from Japanese Shotokan).

Besides,... the punch chamber you describe is also found in Chinese arts. If you look for pictures displaying punches or forward directed hand strikes, you will see the very same chamber that exists in all the Asian arts (i.e.:: Bagua, Sourthern Shaolin Kung Fu, etc.). Some things are universal, and exist in most arts.

[kickcatcher]

I can't speak for TKD, but I can speak for Tang Soo Do, and the execution of punches is different from Tang Soo Do to karate. The difference in not in the position at chamber,... although the proper position for a formal chamber in TSD is not the hip but with the forearm parallel with the ground and fist in the middle of the rib cage. The major difference is the generation of power. What I've observed in karate is that power generation is often done with a hip "wiggle" (and this even at high levels, senior Dan holders, be it Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, Goju, whatever). In Tang Soo Do, there is a decided hip "twist", driving the hip into the direction of the punch, rather than away from it.

??? No, many karate schools don't use the "double hip" nor similar "S-wave" mechanics. Power chains vary from school to school in Karate and are often varied dependant on the stance being employed. At the extremes, schools which emphasise Hangatsu dachi (Half-moon or pigeon-toed stances, also found in many Southern Chinese styles from whence they came) have very short/subtle hip motions (sometimes coming close to their "short fist" cousins) whereas other schools which emphasise long Zengatsu Dachi (front/forward stance in TKD) often have very long hip actions.

"although the proper position for a formal chamber in TSD is not the hip but with the forearm parallel with the ground and fist in the middle of the rib cage"

Likewise for many karate 'styles'. Maybe they knicked it from TSD?

Besides,... the punch chamber you describe is also found in Chinese arts. If you look for pictures displaying punches or forward directed hand strikes, you will see the very same chamber that exists in all the Asian arts (i.e.:: Bagua, Sourthern Shaolin Kung Fu, etc.). Some things are universal, and exist in most arts.

The 'hip' chamber (or various hieghts and orientations) can be found in several 'groups' of kung fu. It appears most emphasised in the early 1900s onwards as cross-pollenation increased -as for it appearing in Shaolin... well it isn't in any of the ancient wall painting postures... but then what is Shaolin and what isn't??? So many arts want to call themselves that.

Karate is clearly derived from a mix of Southern Chinese Chuan fa. The hip chamber is common to both groups so can reasonably be said to have come from Chuan fa to karate.... and it seems from there to TSD/TKD(?).

[TangSooGuy]

There are loads of similarity, but is that such a bad thing?

Regarding one specific technique, who's to say who came up with it first? Does it even matter?

Isn't this similar to asking who came up with the bow and arrow first? Or the sword? Or the knife? Or the sling, spear, hammer. axe, or any one of hundreds of weapons or tools that bear striking similarities but were developed in completely separated cultures that evolved independently of one another? Sure there are variances between the way they are made, and in some cases how they are used, but the basic mechanics and form of each of these tools is the same, across all cultures.

Personally, I think a better question is why WOULD the punching mechanics be any different? If form follows function, doesn't it stand to reason that the punching mechanics of most arts will be, and should be, similar?

[mattyj]

well comparing the styles of karate ive seen done (shotokan, seido) to itf taekwondo, the mechanics arent entirely dissimilar. We have the sine-wave motion (which sets itf and itf offshoots apart from wtf/sport based tkd types) to generate power is the biggest difference. The use of this is a practical situation is more of just a 'coming down' motion than a full 'wave' as seen in patterns. Karate and ITF both have the hip drive/twist..

[MJB55]

lack of meaningful face punching in training/sparring, facilitating the erosion of form. kickcatcher

Can you explain this concept to me?

If you pound me in the face in the Dojang I might take offense...if I miss to many days at work, due to training, my boss will take offense.

Thank you

Mikeb

[aefibird]

Can someone explain the Sine Wave concept used in ITF TKD to me?

I'll probably know it when someone explains it...but like many things, it's got pushed out of my head by new stuff.

Thanks.

[JaseP]

In its most common explanation, "sine wave" motion is a kind of bouncing when throwing the techniques to achieve a gravity assist when throwing techniques. It's largely considered a Shotokan influence. It's one portion of the way that they get power transfer into their techniques.

Tang Soo Do, for example, doesn't use this. We instead use a hip rotation. The body's upward and downward motion is kept more static.

[tufrthanu]

I don't know Jase my current styles and the few versions of karate I've seen all seem to encourage staying low and level when doing forms. It should be noted as well that unlike natural up and down movements the sine wave is a conscious effort by the practitioner to add more power to certain moves and looks unatural to traditional tkd practitioners.

[JaseP]

Well, if you do a google on "sine wave and "martial arts"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22sine+wave%22+%22martial+arts%22&btnG=Google+Search

What you get is a lot of references to Choi's introduction of this into his TaeKwonDo. Choi was taught at the main Shotokan dojo in Japan... so,...

I'm not saying that all TKD or Japanese styles use it,... what I'm saying is that's the documentation of where is comes from in TKD.