Would a flying kick actually be any use against cavalry?

[kickcatcher]

I can’t see it myself.

Whilst the rest of the world uses sharp metal attached to long sticks (such as the Billhook and Kwan Do)….

It would be interesting to hear if anyone’s ever pressure tested the credibility of this ‘history’.

http://www.psbba.com/Mr.%20Wall%20flying%20Kick%202%20edit%205-03.jpg -v- http://protein.biochem.queensu.ca/~dlee/San9/maltz/school/figure/armor_han_cavalry.jpg

[JaseP]

The anti-cavalry origin of jump kicks has long been de-bunked. Even considering that even the shorter war horses of pre-1700s, they were too high to ever kick a person off a horse with a jump kick.

It's more likely that jump kicks were derived from the emphasis of the Koreans on leg strength and kicking,... and were a natural extention of the exercises they did to improve leg stregth.

The Koreans employed all of the weapons that the Chinese had for using against (and from) horse-riding. They even had a few more exotic ones (such as the Nang Sun Chong Do, or multiple tipped bamboo spear). So there was no need to try to knock horsemen off their horses with jump kicks.

[Gyte]

Well.....

There is always the theory of the flying kick being incorporated into a particular style, because the master of that style thought it is was a cool technique.

Edited March 24, 2005 by Gyte

[TangSooGuy]

I'm a korean stylist, and even I don't think this was a common practice....it is a legend, and even legends have some importance...I believe this has already been discussed at some length, so I'll try to dig up the old thread.

I always tell my students that it is a legend. It is possible that it happened at some point, but considering the weight of weapons, armor, etc...it's certainly not all that likely, and if it did happen, it wasn't very commonplace.

I actually don't know any Korean stylist that believes this was commonly done...

However, it is possible to jump fairly high...

This is me, and I'm not even considered a particularly good jumper...

http://www.homestead.com/nebucron2/files/flyingside.jpg

I put that in only to show that it is possible to jump fairly high...and I've seen plenty of people jump higher, and over things....

So I'm just saying it MIGHT have happened...once...and became a legend...not that it is my first choice of techniques, nor that this is an even remotely intelligent means of fighting cavalry...much easier to just attack the horse, or use polearms to drag the rider down.

More than likely you would get killed if you tried to attack someone riding a horse with a flying kick...

Edited March 22, 2005 by TangSooGuy

[tufrthanu]

Well, it IS possible to knock a person off a horse with a kick assuming of course they arent using a saddle with a high back. I mean we've seen people jump onto horses. Personally though I think the jump and flying kicks were meant more to overcome obstacles on the ground like perhaps an icy patch of ground...or perhaps if something like one of those whip chains were thrown at your legs as you were running towards another infantryman...you could jump over it. Realistically if you look at what cavalry was generally used for...mobility and charges...you see how ridiculous the concept of regularly kicking someone off it would be. If you tried doing a jump kick at a charging horse you'd end up as hoof paste. Not to mention the inertia of a rider coming at you full force would probably rip your leg off even if you did connect properly.

[Straight Blast]

why jump kick them off,when you can shoot an arrow into their stomachs? less of a hassle,safer chance of not getting your leg chopped off attempting to kick the guy off the horse.

[tufrthanu]

Well I think the discussion was assumed to be about someone that was unarmed. Thats kinda like saying why do jujitsu when you could just cut their head off with the sword.

[JaseP]

I put that in only to show that it is possible to jump fairly high...and I've seen plenty of people jump higher, and over things....

So I'm just saying it MIGHT have happened...once...and became a legend...not that it is my first choice of techniques, nor that this is an even remotely intelligent means of fighting cavalry...much easier to just attack the horse, or use polearms to drag the rider down.

More than likely you would get killed if you tried to attack someone riding a horse with a flying kick...

Hmmm,... Possibly a legend,... possibly done once,... but look at something for me...

Take a look at the picture that kickcatcher posted of the horse and rider,... then add the leg length of the rider to the bottom of his torso, and figure out how tall he was (remember he is bending his legs). Then compare it to his horse's saddle height. Those are particularly short horses, but probably not out of line with what the Asians had...

Still the horse's saddle is head high. Your picture of a kick just exceeds the first guy's head hieght while he is supporting his buddy (knees bent, but let's ignore that)... Assuming the ancient Koreans had your ability (proportionally),... they would have been hitting a rider just above the crotch level with a jump kick,... not an ideal height from which to dislodge a rider. AND you were jumping from a hardwood floor, not coarse terf...

Maybe once,... then legend... but a very lucky kick if it happened... My bet is still on being an exercise which found a limited application but a great training method...

And I don't go with the "looks cool" to the master theory,... as its more likely that a jump kick is derived from a kick that already exists,... an extrapolation,... as are most techniques.

[TangSooGuy]

Oh, don't get me wrong...I actually totally agree with you, and I don't think it was very likely that it did happen...I'm just saying it's POSSIBLE. Extremely improbable, yes, but I try very hard not to discount anything as a possibility.

A better question to ask might be why we have flying kicks at all, if their application is so "limited", and "impractical" as most people would have us believe.

Flying kicks do accomplish a few things:

1. Help you gain distance

2. Help you gain height

3. Lend additional power to a technique by delivering the weight of the entire body, when done correctly.

I think a flying technique can be executed successfully in a one-on one sitution, but they, like most techniques, are specialized for certain reasons.

I'm not going to sit here and say "I would do a flying technique if such and such happened", because we all know that's not how a fight works.

I don't think that there was always such an emphasis on how high one jumped, nor on the "beauty" of the technique.

I've actually found that flying kicks can be a successful way to tackle someone, or to over power them...and that in certain situations, they make sense...

It is very rare that I would execute a flying kick to head, but sometimes they can be used effectively to the body to knock someone down, or away...and even a small jump would lend quite a bit to an attack to the foot or knee or leg. Watch Muay Thai fighters, and you will see that on several occasions, they do "jump" into their techniques, if not very high.

Honestly, though, even after 20 years, I'm still working on their correct application.

So, even in a one on one confrontaion, I wouldn't always use them, but they have applications, and can be effective. I just don't think they are really meant to be used the way people classically picture them, like in the pictures above.

So why do them that way at all? It is a great way to train the body for one thing...and it is impressive, too. Lets's not forget that there are a lot of techniques in which it can be argued that part of the reason they existed was to demonstrate superior skill before a fight ever took place, thus insuring that the fight never happened.

There is also something to be said for impressing people enough to get them in the door, and then show them what the reality is...

If your focus is all flash, then you aren't going anywhere, but a little flash here and there may actually be beneficial to getting/ keeping interest.

I know I'm going to catch some flak for that statement, but it's a tool. My art isn't about flash, and neither is my school. But there isn't anything wrong with testing your limits once in awhile either, nor with demonstrating what you are capable of doing.

There are things that impress ME far more than high jumping techniques, but that's because I know the difference. The general public does not...

Okay, I realize I'm rambling, but I tend to write in a stream of consciousness, so I'm sorry if that is not very cohesive.

I'm just trying to say that I don't believe that flying techniques were used to knock people off horses, but the questio remains, why do we do them at all?

I happen to think there are several reasons, whether I articulated that or not, I don't know.

[tufrthanu]

umm, did you guys not even read my post or what? I agree with you jumping could be used to cover distance quickly...but perhaps not as fast as running. It seems much more logical to me that it would be to get over obstacles, such as things on the ground or perhaps even a kick or another attack aimed at your legs. Really wish people would pay attention.