Shiko vs Kiba

[swdw]

Well, having been in Shotokan for 3 years before Goju (16 yrs), I prefer shiko dachi because it fits my body type better and places less stress on my knees .(I have "duck feet")

My wife has her own translation for the term shiko dachi. She says it translates to "Extremely painful to the leg muscles stance developed by a bunch of short masochistic Okinawans"

She came up with that after our Sensei had us staying in shiko dachi w/o coming up or changing stances for 10 minutes (well ten minutes for those that could stay in it that long )

[Venrix]

I prefer ShikoDatchi to KibaDatchi, but that's because, personally, I find it to be a stronger stance for me.

For me - it depends on the strike I'm about to perform (or receive). Typically, Kiba feel 'weak and unbalanced' when striking to (or receiving a direct strike from) the front. There is nothing behind to stabilise the outgoing (or receive the incoming force of the incoming) strike. That's probably why most people find Shiko more 'stable'.

However, when performing a technique to the side, Kiba is hugely more stable.

For example, try a 'full throttle' Jun Tsuki in both Kiba and Shiko and watch what happens.

Alternatively - here are a couple of drills to help you 'feel' the difference.

1) Block an incoming Tsuki whilst steping in and to the left (at 45°) into Zenkutsu Dachi (your opponent should finish to your right and 'inside' your Zenkustu. Your counter strike is a Left Tsuki from Shiko Dachi into the liver of your opponent. In other words - 'snap' from Zekutsu into Shiko whilst delivering the strike. Trust me - your opponent is down an out.

2) Next try the same drill with Kiba. Since the strike is delivered from your front (but at a 45° angle to your opponent) - you will find that you have far less power and far less stability.

3) Next - do the same drill. Finish in Shiko Dachi with a left Kake Uchi (also known as a good ole fashioned 'left hook' ) to your opponents kidneys (hitting him in the back). Since the force of the blow is coming from the side - Shiko does a good job of supporting the blow - but doesn't carry the strike through quite so well as....

4) Same as No. 3 - this time in Kiba Dachi.

Remember - these drills will only work if you 'snap' into your Kiba/Shiko with correct hip movement (the strike and hip movement snaping into it's target and 'locking' together at the point of impact).

This is another example of how 'the application decides the stance that one chooses in a confrontation - the stance does not decide the application'.

Hope this helps , have fun trying out the drills and remember to ask your opponent for feedback on the force of the strikes.

-V-

[Master Jules]

Shiko Dachi (also known as "sumo stance") has the feet at 45* angle, while the Kiba Dachi (also known as "horse stance" ) has the feet parallel. The depth of each stance is the same.

[pers]

Thamks guys. I was really looking for opinions rather than advice hehe

I have noticed in some Goju schools the Shiko dachi is practised as low as our Kiba dachi

With reference to mobility, the reason we train in low stances is to develop mobility rather than lose it. You see when you train constantly in a lower stance it simply means when you are sparring and naturally taking a higher stance, you are stronger and actually more mobile. Your body is used to operating at lower levels and when you come up its easier to move.

Mobility/agility is of course a critical factor for the MA. This is why its a good idea to do some cross training into the agility training exercises of other sports such as Ladder Agility exercises etc.

I totally agree with you . the strength that the ankles develop by moving around in the basic stances is evident.

i say both of these stances have their use ,but for me I say kiba dachi has helped me enourmosly in football ! or soccer as is known ,I play goalkeeper and kiba dachi has allowed me to move with the kind af balance and speed that I never had before hand ! not only I was amazed myself when I started playing again after some years of being away from soccer and just doing karate how at over 30 I am a better goalie than when I was playing for college first team when i was 18-21 ! it was all down to karate and my basics ,and for my job in diving to my left and right after a quick step (just like when stepping in kiba dachi to do kekomi) kiba dachi was my secret ! ( to the eyes of other players )

I must say this that no one I play football with knows I do karate !

it is just the way I am ,keep myself to myself , you know more about my karate than them!!

[1st KYU]

personally i find the shiko dachi as a more stable stance. i also find it to have more mobillity.

is this because its the stance ive done for eight years...probably. The shiko dachi just feels more comfortable/natural in my opinion.

[aefibird]

I prefer ShikoDatchi to KibaDatchi, but that's because, personally, I find it to be a stronger stance for me.

For me - it depends on the strike I'm about to perform (or receive). Typically, Kiba feel 'weak and unbalanced' when striking to (or receiving a direct strike from) the front. There is nothing behind to stabilise the outgoing (or receive the incoming force of the incoming) strike. That's probably why most people find Shiko more 'stable'.

However, when performing a technique to the side, Kiba is hugely more stable.

For example, try a 'full throttle' Jun Tsuki in both Kiba and Shiko and watch what happens.

Alternatively - here are a couple of drills to help you 'feel' the difference.

1) Block an incoming Tsuki whilst steping in and to the left (at 45°) into Zenkutsu Dachi (your opponent should finish to your right and 'inside' your Zenkustu. Your counter strike is a Left Tsuki from Shiko Dachi into the liver of your opponent. In other words - 'snap' from Zekutsu into Shiko whilst delivering the strike. Trust me - your opponent is down an out.

2) Next try the same drill with Kiba. Since the strike is delivered from your front (but at a 45° angle to your opponent) - you will find that you have far less power and far less stability.

3) Next - do the same drill. Finish in Shiko Dachi with a left Kake Uchi (also known as a good ole fashioned 'left hook' ) to your opponents kidneys (hitting him in the back). Since the force of the blow is coming from the side - Shiko does a good job of supporting the blow - but doesn't carry the strike through quite so well as....

4) Same as No. 3 - this time in Kiba Dachi.

Remember - these drills will only work if you 'snap' into your Kiba/Shiko with correct hip movement (the strike and hip movement snaping into it's target and 'locking' together at the point of impact).

This is another example of how 'the application decides the stance that one chooses in a confrontation - the stance does not decide the application'.

Hope this helps , have fun trying out the drills and remember to ask your opponent for feedback on the force of the strikes.

-V-

I've done drills like that before but I still prefer Shiko to Kiba. Just a bit of persona preference I guess.

[jarrettmeyer]

... I feel that having a very deep kiba dachi (or shiko dachi, for that matter) is quite impractical, other than building muscle and endurance in training...

This is exactly what we were taught at my dojo. It is a very low and stable position. In the part of a shoulder throw where your opponent is above your shoulder, your weight is low and your feet are parallel - a Kiba.

"Stances" don't really exist in fighting. Even if you were in a true Kiba, you'd never hold it for more than a few seconds, and you were there for a specific reason. But you would transition out it nearly immediately. When Sensai makes us hold a Kiba for long periods of time, that is for building strength.

[The Hammer]

To back up Jussi Hakkinen, the traditional way of doing both stances is much higher. To be honest, I fail to see the utility in a very deep kiba dachi or a deep shiko dachi.

But to answer the question, one difference between having the feet parallel and the feet out at an angle is that the feet parallel is useful for "locking in place" during grappling, while the feet out at an angle allows for rising and falling movement during grappling (as well as easier transition in stance).

Using this reasoning, I feel that having a very deep kiba dachi (or shiko dachi, for that matter) is quite impractical, other than building muscle and endurance in training. In my opinion, the only real usefulness of having deep stances is for grappling purposes. Grappling in the manner of shiko dachi or kiba dachi as linked to above is too "double-weighted," not beneficial from a biomechanical perspective, and leaves you too vulnerable.

True indeed!

[Shorei_student]

In my school we use a very deep Kiba Dachi where that stance is required.

Gojuryu, and other schools use a very similar stance called Shiko Dachi.

In your opinion, which do you feel is the better stance? And if so why?

[/i]

This is my first post here so I'll make it a simple one. Personally working something like a third level Kiba is very hard on the knees. If you work it often enough you'll probably need knee surgery before you're in your 40's. When I started training that is ALL we ever used. We were taught Shiko, but it was never used in kata or in anything else really. As I got older I began to gain more and more knowledge of body mechanics, and the fact that the Kiba was more damaging than I thought. Now, I still use Kiba in competition and sometimes when just working in the dojo, but more often than not I prefer to work Shiko. In Shiko I can sink a little lower without the added stress on my knees.

Really there is little difference in form or function, it's more a personal preference on which you work. In Shiko, though, I find that most people can work it lower more comfortably and thus lowering their center of gravity if you are sparring with someone who is keen in judo. Some would argue that Kiba is easier for stance changes into Zenks, but I've never found it awkward to go from Shiko to Zenks or vice versa. I do find a Shiko more suitable to shift into a Kokes (lay out stance).

I guess I should add this somewhere. Hello my name is Chris. I'm getting ready to receive my Nidan in Shuri/Shorei-ryu, and I hail from North Carolina.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Asheville? Did you ever have a chance to meet Kyoshi Kevin Roberts or Kyoshi Doug Perry? They're in your area, I believe. Great karateka.

And welcome.