Yama-tsuki and Bassai

[Beer-monster]

It can be applied in many different ways, including different levels, and still be effective.

That very true

Really that was just a gripe based on my wway of working bunkai, I usually like to have an application that follows the kata movement as close as possible and then move into "henka" by changing the levels, proximity, tool of the move.

But thats just me.

Back to the yama tsuki, why would you say there are three of them, as thats suggests a stand alone application as well as one that follows from the elbow and leads to the uchi? If that makes any sense.

Speaking of the elbow, anyone have anything for the wierd triple supported gedan barai movements in kiba (shiko) dachi?

[cathal]

We have also used it as a double-punch. But it all depends on how your enemy approaches you. The full setup with your wrists to the side can be interpreted as grabbing their punch, and then the double-punch.

[JimmyNewton]

i didnt realize "henka" was the word for various interpretations. thanks

[Shorin Ryuu]

Henka has more the connotation of variation, alteration, transition, etc. In this case, the context allows for "interpretations" perhaps, I think he was emphasizing more of the variation aspect of it (correct me if I'm wrong, Beer-monster).

[JimmyNewton]

ok, I see what you mean.

nice to have an extra addition to my vocabulary.

[pers]

It can be applied in many different ways, including different levels, and still be effective.

Thats right ,as long as it works it is correct !

 

this close quarter application has its own benefits in self defence ,it is important to note that the upper hand block the arm of the attacker in order to be effective ,as always timing is very crusial ,too early and the attacker can change to some thing else ,too late and you get hit !

[cathal]

Another member of my dojo used it as a throw once...it was very effective though I couldn't describe it properly now.

[Gyte]

Back to the yama tsuki, why would you say there are three of them, as thats suggests a stand alone application as well as one that follows from the elbow and leads to the uchi? If that makes any sense.

Speaking of the elbow, anyone have anything for the wierd triple supported gedan barai movements in kiba (shiko) dachi?

Well, I guess that the reason why the yama zuki is performed three times in the kata Bassai Dai is to stress the different bunkai that can be used for the yama zuki. I can't think of another reason.

My interpretation for the triple supported gedan barai is that they are blocks meant to be performed at close quarter fights. The attacker attacks with two low punches at the defenders stomach and defender blocks with two supported gedan barai and counter attacks with the third supported gedan barai. The reason why the other fist is held againts the elbow of the blocking arm is that the defender then can block faster. Fast blocking is very crucial in close quarter fights. A normal gedan barai would just take more time, because of the longer distance the arms would have to move. This technique doesn't necessarilly have to be performed in kiba dachi, it can also be performed in a fighting stance.

Just my 2 cents.

[Beer-monster]

Hmm just a thought, but the three gedans might work as a guillotine choke, neck crank type of move (though this is a bit dodgy)

In close quarters, dropping your weight use kiba dachi, and using a knife hand to create distance and take a hard grip you use the mikazuki geri to sweep an opponents leg up and away (with a good follow through thus the height). This may or may not (since life is not predictable ) take him down, if not it should have made him stumble enough to slam an elbow into his head.

Now since you already have his head, drop the arm straight along one side (gedan barai) and pull his head into the crook formed by the elbow of your supporting arm so his head is in your armpit. Swap the arms to tightnen the guillotine choke, you could put the straight arm over his shoulder for a figure 4 choke. Take hold of his head by the chin with your bent (right) arm and swap again to crank the neck.

if this doesn't work, or you want to finish him use yama tsuki to throw him away or take him down (grap one arm high, one low to his groin or thigh lift and twist in a modified body lock take down).

Sorry - thats kind of hard to describe in words but I hope you can understand, what do you guys think?

[Shorin Ryuu]

In my opinion, the best way to try and figure out the bunkai for a move is to look at the move before and after it. It think it is important not just to have bunkai for each individual move, but for chains and sets of moves as well.

I THINK I know which sequence you're talking about in Bassai Dai (Assuming your Bassai Dai is the same as our Passai Sho...something I've seen happen quite often, and given the other things discussed in this thread, makes it quite likely). The way we do it is in the sequence before the "three gedan barai", we bring the right arm in a sort of outside-to-inside soto uke which the open left hand meets at the elbow. From here, the right hand swings down into the gedan barai, followed by a left and a right gedan barai without changing stance. This leads me to believe that the initial block is grabbing the opponent's arm and smashing the elbow, then applying an arm bar to bring the opponent down. This can be linked to the "double punch" manuever and the move afterwards to further inflict hurt on the opponent in the form of a throw or otherwise. Or, it can be seen as the end of the sequence itself.

In regards to the original question of the "double punch", I see it as being entirely possible to be an actual double punch. It isn't impossible to do a double strike while preventing yourself from being vulnerable, nor is it exactly all that hard to do. I much prefer striking at opposing sides of the body (laterally and vertically) to attain maximum effect on neurological disruption. This also sets up the subsequent throw that occurs as you turn easier. A trick in doing this is immediately after you strike, grab the opponent (and realistically, you can strike with the fist or the palm to make it easier), grab onto the opponent's flesh/skin/clothes to help out your throw. Something also to take into account for this technique is the leg movement prior to the punch. It also can form an important part of the sequence as well...