Do blocks really work?

[swdw]

Ineresting, yet in all this, I haven't seen anyone mentin that Goju STARTS with block and counter and gradually moves the timing to where the block and counter are performed almost simultaneously.

 

I think people may misunderstand something Jules said because of the common perception of what makes a "grappling art". Most people picture this as rolling around on the floor aka judo style. This is not the case.

 

When calling Goju a grappling art, Jules is referring to grabbing and controlling the opponent. Yes tihi may involve throws and joint locks like jujitsu, but it often involves controlling the attacking limb to keep the opponent off balanced and interrupt his rythymn to prevent a follow on attack. This does not mean a Goju practitioner is always seeking an entry for a throw. It means that he gains control of the attacker allowing either striking, joint locks or throwing depending on his position, opponents momentum, and situation.

 

I would also remind Steve that most street fights involve 2 UNTRAINED fighters whose idea of blocking is to take a shot while moving in. This poses a different aspect to Seves question which really should be- why do most schools only train to fight another trained fighter? This has caused experienced karateka to get blasted in a self defense situation because the attacker doesn't act like the practitioner expects.

 

As far as whether traditional blocks work on the street. Many people say no because there are keys to the traditional block that have been lost over the years. For example, in the circular Goju chest block performed in a traditional manner there are actuall TWO blocks performed simultaneously. The hands cross at one point. WHY? Because the pulling hand is actually performing a "tap" block which is then cleared by the blocking arm. You now have 2 chances to move the attacking technique in the same amount of time you think your only doing one.

 

The major difference is you don't draw the pulling hand all the way back but stop it in front of the body. However, pulling the blocking hand all the way back on the counter IS done if you get a hold on the attacking arm.

 

There are many traditioanl Goju blocks that are VERY quick and efficient and are taught that way.

 

In addition, another understanding lost over the years is that every block can be used as an escape against a grab and this works best if the block is done almost identically to the way it is done in basics practice.

 

For Steve. Whenever both hands are moving in a kata, it's not just because that's the way the technique is done. Both hands have a purpose for their motion. Find it. Heck, even the Gekisai kata are chock full of simultaneous hand techniques, but most people don't see them because they don't look. Often, a slight angle change in the body during bunkai opens a whole world of options. Even a slight change in the blocking move shows a whole new application. The chest blocks on the Gekisais are also an elbow lock.

 

Another example of understanding that has gone missing is the down block. The circular down block in Goju done traditionally is also an outside chest block that feeds the incoming punch to the pulling hand and then the blocking hand continues in a downward motion as you move in and it becomes is a strike. One move-and in that single motion is a block, grab, pull, and strike.

 

If you haven't seen these applications you may not be far enough along yet. You have to walk before you can run. Making them work invlolves correct understanding of you and your oppnents balance, timing, tai sabaki, and practice with simultaneous techniques. People taught these techniques too early often have trouble making them work because their balance and timing are not developed enough yet.

 

Jules will tell you the same thing as he is from one of the main branches of Goju and anyone at his level in that ryu knows these principles. Sadly, many of the offshoots of Goju formed when someone leaves too early and forms their own ryu have caused numerous techniques to be lost.

Edited March 21, 2005 by swdw

[smr]

A street fight is usually complete mayhem and doesn't even get close to resembling how we usually train in the controlled arena. Therefore, my question is in reality are blocks effective?

 

That's why we train. So that we may be able to control the situation, and prevent mayhem from occuring. Blocks work if you use them properly. For a block to work, you need to block _and_ move. It's up to the instructor to teach effective blocking; something many schools don't do. You're not fast enough to use a rising block from hikite to intercept a punch you didn't know was coming.

[Shorin Ryuu]

I would also remind Steve that most street fights involve 2 UNTRAINED fighters whose idea of blocking is to take a shot while moving in. This poses a different aspect to Seves question which really should be- why do most schools only train to fight another trained fighter? This has caused experienced karateka to get blasted in a self defense situation because the attacker doesn't act like the practitioner expects.

I think this is a pretty important point. Many of the traditional styles were designed to work against random outbreaks of violence in the traditional Confucian order, not to compete or fight other highly trained martial artists. Certainly martial artists could and did fight other martial artists, but it was more designed literally for street fight situations. Most practitioners on Okinawa, for example, were bodyguards, law enforcement or warrior nobility.

As far as whether traditional blocks work on the street. Many people say no because there are keys to the traditional block that have been lost over the years. For example, in the circular Goju chest block performed in a traditional manner there are actuall TWO blocks performed simultaneously. The hands cross at one point. WHY? Because the pulling hand is actually performing a "tap" block which is then cleared by the blocking arm. You now have 2 chances to move the attacking technique in the same amount of time you think your only doing one.

I agree with this as well. Another way of looking at it (since there are so many) is that the first motion is a catch while the "block" is the strike as the arm is locked into place. Obviously this will all depend on the situation. But I strongly believe that traditional "blocking" was designed to never allow the opponent a second chance to attack.

The major difference is you don't draw the pulling hand all the way back but stop it in front of the body. However, pulling the blocking hand all the way back on the counter IS done if you get a hold on the attacking arm.

 

There are many traditioanl Hoju blocks that are VERY quick and efficient and ar taught that way.

 

In addition, another understanding lost over the years is that every block can be used as an escape against a grab and this works best if the block is done almost identically to the way it is done in basics practice.

 

For Steve. Whenever both hands are moving in a kata, it's not just because that's the way the technique is done. Both hands have a purpose for their motion. Find it. Heck, even the Gekisai kata are chock full of simultaneous hand techniques, but most people don't see them because they don't look. Often, a slight angle change in the body during bunkai opens a whole world of options. Even a slight change in the blocking move shows a whole new application. The chest blocks on the Gekisais are also an elbow lock.

 

Another example of understanding that has gone missing is the down block. The down block in Goju done traditionally is also an outside chest block that feeds the incoming punch to the pulling hand and then the blocking hand continues in a downward motion as you move in and it becomesve is a strike. One move-and in that single motion is a block, grab, pull, and strike.

 

If you haven't seen these applications yet you may not be far enough along yet. You have to walk before you can run. Making them work invlolves correct understanding of you and your oppnents balance, timing, tai sabaki, and practice with simultaneous techniques. People taught these techniques too early often have trouble making them work because their balance and timing are not developed enough yet.

 

Jules will tell you the same thing as he is from one of the main branches of Goju and anyone at his level in that ryu knows these techniques. Sadly, many of the offshoots of Goju formed when someone leaves too early and forms their own ryu have caused many of these techniques to be lost.

 

Right on the money.

Edited March 21, 2005 by Shorin Ryuu

[smr]

If you try to block a stick coming to your head, and you haven't conditioned your arms, your arm will break. If they are conditioned, hopefully the stick breaks.

 

Ouch! What kind of stick are you talking about here?

[shotochem]

Application, Application, Application.

 

When an experienced practicioner blocks is it not also a parry? Does the body just stand there while the arm blocks or does it shift slightly out of harms way as the offending attack is blocked past?

 

If you block with only power bone on bone unless you have the more conditioned arm you will break it. Once the block parrys the attack, the opening is there for the counter attack, lock, grab and or throw.

 

First rule don't get hit then worry about countering. But, don't sit there and wait to block, if the opportunity is there to prempt the attack move in and attack.

[Muaythaiboxer]

i dont block i parry or cover up and take the hit. i dont think blocking in the old way works at all.

[Master Jules]

SWDW......

 

That is an extremely astute assessment. Goju is a very complex art, and has many "hidden" things going on at one time. For example, as you mentioned, the middle block. The concept of "block short, strike long", and block long, strike short". Both hands move in the middle block, as they both have purpose (many actually)....since you never really stand "square" to an opponent, is it the forward hand that blocks, or is it the rear hand that blocks ???....It can be both.....one hand can parry, while the other is doing the block, but it can also be a strike, or a "standing grappling move". This also hjolds true for the mawashi uke (circular block), which is done at the end of many kata. This block is actually showing you a blocking "path", wherein there are MANY blocks. The hand is pulled back at a 90* angle when performing this block, and again, the concept of "block long strike short or block short, strike long" is going on. For example, the hand which appears to not be doing the block can be doing a parry, and the hand which appears to be doing the block can be used to hook behind the opponents head and force him down. Then again, the hand which appears to be doing the circular movement may be the block, and the other hand my be performing a shuto to the opponents temple. While this might be a bit difficult to visualize in a written explanation, it is a very effective technique. Many people are familiar with the Mawashi Uke (circular block) which ends many of the kata. What many people dont know is that when the hands "press" foward at the end, that is actually a throw. The gripping that is done and shown by the fingers is a display of the shaolin chin na aspect of the art. It is showing a palm strike, followed by a grab, and the actual ripping off of flesh of the opponent. It was said that Miyagi trained for this by hanging a side of beef, and his grip strength was so legendary, that he was actually said to be able to tear off chunks of meat with his bare hands, something I certainly wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of.

[Master Jules]

Goju Ryu is inherently a Buddhist art.

 

I thought that Gogen Yamaguchi followed mainly the shinto "faith". I realise he was not the founder of goju but he certainly would have had alot of influence over its direction.

 

Where does the buddhist influence come from?

 

The only influence that Yamaguchi had over Goju was HIS system of Japanese Goju, which is quite different from Traditional Okinawan Goju. Goju really descends from the Fukien province of China, from the White Crane system of Kung Fu, amongst other things. Many of the hand positions are derivatives of the Buddhist praying palms, where the hands are pressed together in front of you, elbows out to the sides. Also, If you examine the Goju kata, you will find that the ones which are "numbered", such as seisan, sepai, sanseiru, pechurin...etc....meaning 13 hands, 18 hands, 36 hands, 108 hands......those numbers are multiples of the number 3....as in Sanchin....3 battles or conflicts.....The number 3 is very big in Buddhism, as it is equivalent to the "holy trinity". Also, if you look at the kata from a top view, they all have "crossing" patterns on the floor. The highest form, Pechurin (108 hands) actually is used as a blessing ceremony to ward off evil spirits.

[cross]

Thanks for your explanation.

[steve57]

Shorin Ryuu,

I don't actually need reminding that '...most street fights involve [two] UNTRAINED fighters...' I am well aware of this.

You are of course correct in your assumptions regarding '...most schools only train to fight another trained fighter...' However, I think that this is changing, and more and more schools are realizing the necessity to include adapted techniques for use in the street.