Lack of Ground Works

[dingyuan]

Hi, I have a question that I wish to ask you Grappling people, why is that all Chinese martial arts lack ground work and submission? Some Chinese martial art like Shuai Jiao have great throws and grappling skills but it lacks solid ground work like Judo and JJ, is there a reason why the Chinese overlook the ground submission part?

[ravenzoom]

This fact always surprised me also, I don't know why they never worked on their ground skills. Surely in fights back in the day they went to the ground sometimes. I guess since everyone fighting in China never concentrated on ground fighting they believed they did not need to work on it.

[Thaegen]

In real armed fights (swords, spears...) landing on the ground means a certain death. You don't have the time to do some rolling on the ground.

 

Japanese MA have groundwork, but will be mostly used on 1v1 unarmed fights and than still..

 

Groundwork know is just more in the picture because of a lot of sport fights... In RL fights mostly untrained people go stumbling on the ground.

 

Groundwork is good against 1v1, but nog agains 1v2

 

or 100samoerei vs 100 samoerei....

 

 

 

This is just my personal opinion

[ravenzoom]

Good point, I can't really argue that, especially when looking at their historical background.

[SevenStar]

In real armed fights (swords, spears...) landing on the ground means a certain death. You don't have the time to do some rolling on the ground.

 

Japanese MA have groundwork, but will be mostly used on 1v1 unarmed fights and than still..

 

Groundwork know is just more in the picture because of a lot of sport fights... In RL fights mostly untrained people go stumbling on the ground.

 

Groundwork is good against 1v1, but nog agains 1v2

 

or 100samoerei vs 100 samoerei....

 

 

 

This is just my personal opinion

 

those are good points. In response to the first, going to the ground DID happen. The japanese recognized that, and realized that when it did happen, they needed to be able to get up efficiently, that way they would not get stabbed, trampled, etc. The only way to learn this is via groundwork. My guess is that that is why they added it.

 

The chinese have thought (from what I've heard, anyway) that fighing on the ground is considered a disgrace. If this is true, that would be why you see such a lack of it in their styles. There is at least one ground oriented chinese style though - fukien dog boxing.

 

As for noat wanting to go to the ground in real life against multiple attackers, there are alot of factors there.

 

1. you may not have a choice. if you do go down, you need to know how to get back up.

 

2. people stumble and fall, as you said. it's not only untrained people though, as there are obtacles, wet floors, etc. you can slip on and trip over. in addition, if you opponent is untrained and falls into you, you are now in a clinch - grappling range. It may or may not go down from there

 

3. ALOT of people wrestled in high school - at least in the US. why would you want to take the chance of running into someone who may have some type of ground training?

[TJS]

Wanting to fight standing up is not a good reason no to train ground fighting.

 

If you dont want to fight on the ground the best way is to learn how to get on top and/or get back up. unfortunatly alot of styles dont realize that.

[dingyuan]

In real armed fights (swords, spears...) landing on the ground means a certain death. You don't have the time to do some rolling on the ground.

 

Japanese MA have groundwork, but will be mostly used on 1v1 unarmed fights and than still..

 

Groundwork know is just more in the picture because of a lot of sport fights... In RL fights mostly untrained people go stumbling on the ground.

 

Groundwork is good against 1v1, but nog agains 1v2

 

or 100samoerei vs 100 samoerei....

 

 

 

This is just my personal opinion

 

those are good points. In response to the first, going to the ground DID happen. The japanese recognized that, and realized that when it did happen, they needed to be able to get up efficiently, that way they would not get stabbed, trampled, etc. The only way to learn this is via groundwork. My guess is that that is why they added it.

 

The chinese have thought (from what I've heard, anyway) that fighing on the ground is considered a disgrace. If this is true, that would be why you see such a lack of it in their styles. There is at least one ground oriented chinese style though - fukien dog boxing.

 

As for noat wanting to go to the ground in real life against multiple attackers, there are alot of factors there.

 

1. you may not have a choice. if you do go down, you need to know how to get back up.

 

2. people stumble and fall, as you said. it's not only untrained people though, as there are obtacles, wet floors, etc. you can slip on and trip over. in addition, if you opponent is untrained and falls into you, you are now in a clinch - grappling range. It may or may not go down from there

 

3. ALOT of people wrestled in high school - at least in the US. why would you want to take the chance of running into someone who may have some type of ground training?

 

Sevenstar, which one is the fukien dog boxing, "Di Tang Quan" or is it "Di Shu Quan"?

[ovine king]

actually...... while the chinese styles don't generally have a lot of ground work, they do tend to have a lot of ways of clearing yourself some space and getting youself up, especially in the older styles.

 

there is/was a sub-set within styles simply (translated) called tumbling.

 

if you take the core of the style as being the fighting (hand/feet) and forms:

 

the grabs, locks, throws as being chin-na.

 

the going to the ground and getting back up is the tumbling.

 

the structure and movement is the stance/footwork.

 

because the last three things i mention above are actually quite general and are almost the same no matter the style, they aren't generally taught under the same of the host style.

 

so while i might've learnt some tumbling, chin-na and classical stances in my wing chun, it isn't technically part of the wing chun BUT it is still an important part of the training (martial study).

[SevenStar]

fan tzu, right?

[SevenStar]

Sevenstar, which one is the fukien dog boxing, "Di Tang Quan" or is it "Di Shu Quan"?

di shu quan