Okinawan Kenpo

[mattys]

I've always prided myself on being a traditional martial artist... my sensei always tells me that there is a huge difference between traditional martial arts and contemporary, but I'm starting to doubt that my sensei is telling the truth in this. I don't know much about the history and the ryu system in Okinawan budo, but my teacher has never specified what Okinawan art we study. It's always Okinawan Kenpo Karate-do. All of our kata are similar to that of Shorin-ryu and the like, all the Pinan, Naihanchi, and the like, but I have no idea what we actually study. Is Okinawan Kenpo actually an Okinawan budo? I've always thought that kenpo is just a sort of blanket term, like the term martial arts.

 

Also, I've been looking up a lot of kata videos lately, and all the videos that I find are exactly alike, but they are all at odds with the forms that I know. The same basic movements are there, the same structure, but somehow much more complex than what I know. In all of our kata, all the movements are basic: punches, blocks, and kicks, but this seems to be totally different. What's even more disturbing is that I know that this stuff has to be mostly true that I'm being taught... because my sensei has studied in Okinawa under Masters Odo and Maehara many years ago. The lineage is there, it just doesn't look the same as what I'm seeing.

 

I guess this sounds like a rant against my sensei, but can anyone shed some light onto this situation?

[Shorin Ryuu]

The strict division of karate on Okinawa into different styles (apart from obvious inner-circle family systems, which even then were sometimes shared) is pretty brand new on Okinawa.

 

Therefore, it isn't surprising that many or most of the kata in systms such as Okinawa kenpo are pretty much all Shorin Ryu kata. But that isn't a "bad thing", nor does that make Okinawan kenpo "non-traditional". The only thing that makes a karate style traditional or not is it's kata. All the other stuff (gi, belts, dojo, etc.) aren't truly "traditional".

 

You have to look at the teacher of Odo Seikichi and Maehara Seijiro (whom your instructor says he trained with): Nakamura Shigeru. Nakamura trained under people like Higashionna, Kuniyoshi Peichin, Yabu, and Hanashiro Chomo. All these people were fundamental in shaping the present form of the traditional arts existing today. On Okinawa, it wasn't uncommon for people to study Nahate and Shurite and many masters of various methods were friends (many of them grew up training together and went their own ways later).

 

Nakamura Shigeru used the name "Okinawa Kenpo" because he didn't want to come up with a new name for what he did. In other words, since it was more or less a transmission of the traditional arts of his teachers, he didn't feel like a new name was necessary.

 

You have to remember you're seeing Okinawa Kenpo Karate through the lens of your current teacher. He may or may not be showing you things in-depth depending on your level (I don't know what your level and depth of critical analysis is in martial arts). I haven't met him or seen him, so I can't make comments on his skill level, which definitely dwarfs mine if he got to train with those people.

 

 

 

For example, I have several videotapes of Oyata Seiyu, who was a student of Nakamura Shigeru. His kata is for the most part, all Shorin Ryu kata. He does them markedly differently (I'm not sure if I'd do them all his way), but his bunkai/applications for the forms are superb. I wouldn't want to fight with him (or some of his students).

 

So yes, Okinawan Kenpo actually refers to a specific "style" of karate rather than using a generic name for it. Using kata and lineage as a guide, it is traditional. How your instructor teaches it will have an impact on how "traditional" it is, but the style itself is traditional.

 

Once again, dojo, gi, obi...none of these things are "traditional".

[AnonymousOne]

There are so many styles today and even variations amoungst teachers in a style it can be quite confusing.

 

I see our Heian (Pinan) Kata for an example, that other schools train in and I am amased how different they are performed.

 

The stance is high, the movements are performed more like a light dance, rather than an aggressive battle sequence.

 

But still, thats peoples choice to train that way. At the end of the day, you have to research various schools and decide what you think is best.

 

When I started training at age 7 I just went to the local dojo. Fortunately its a great school and 41 years later I am still there.

 

I have however visited many dojos and since the 1980's there are now a smorgasbord of dojo's available and to date I havent seen a school that is better than the one I am in or has the same standards.

 

However, we dont have a lot of students in vast numbers (like we did in the 1970's when we were one of the few dojo's), because the training is so harse. Many people join up and soon leave for John Doe's Easy Martial Arts Academy.

[P.A.L]

I see our Heian (Pinan) Kata for an example, that other schools train in and I am amased how different they are performed.

 

The stance is high, the movements are performed more like a light dance, rather than an aggressive battle sequence.

 

But still, thats peoples choice to train that way. At the end of the day, you have to research various schools and decide what you think is best.

with all the respect i have for you,I am totally disagree here, these light dance stances in your eyes happened to be the original stance in the original forms, it's funny that you think kokutsu dachi in Heian Nidan is combative and high stance of Pinan shodan is like a dance, do you realy think that two blocks(outside inside and middle block) of Bassai Dai in zenkutso have ever been used in a real fight, I guess choki mutobo never can't pass the Naihanchi kata under your eyes since his naihanchi-dachi is too high to be combative like Kiba-dachi, from one side you all talking about the importance of kata as a tool to learn how to fight, from other hand you justify your dead static stances as a tool to make a karate-ka stronger and faster. we fight the way we do our kata, you fight like us but you do your kata in other way and still think kata teaches you how to fight. IMHO okinawan kenpo or karate is in combative side and yours is sport side. i don't wanna start a fight over my MA is better than yours ,so i am gonna leave the last word to you.

[AnonymousOne]

I see our Heian (Pinan) Kata for an example, that other schools train in and I am amased how different they are performed.

 

The stance is high, the movements are performed more like a light dance, rather than an aggressive battle sequence.

 

But still, thats peoples choice to train that way. At the end of the day, you have to research various schools and decide what you think is best.

with all the respect i have for you,I am totally disagree here, these light dance stances in your eyes happened to be the original stance in the original forms, it's funny that you think kokutsu dachi in Heian Nidan is combative and high stance of Pinan shodan is like a dance, do you realy think that two blocks(outside inside and middle block) of Bassai Dai in zenkutso have ever been used in a real fight, I guess choki mutobo never can't pass the Naihanchi kata under your eyes since his naihanchi-dachi is too high to be combative like Kiba-dachi, from one side you all talking about the importance of kata as a tool to learn how to fight, from other hand you justify your dead static stances as a tool to make a karate-ka stronger and faster. we fight the way we do our kata, you fight like us but you do your kata in other way and still think kata teaches you how to fight. IMHO okinawan kenpo or karate is in combative side and yours is sport side. i don't wanna start a fight over my MA is better than yours ,so i am gonna leave the last word to you.

 

I have no idea how you perform your kata obviously, so I cannot comment on your performance or even your school.

 

Albeit, have you seen how a top class boxer punches a bag with full verosity, full power, full commitment, and total focus?

 

Thats how we practise our Kata. Total power and commitment in every movement, except of course for the parts of the Kata that are designed to be slow and light, otherwise its all out.

 

We train for explosive power. This anaerobic work is very demanding, but exactly matches what is needed in real combat.

 

As for me I havent competed in contest for well over 20 years, so no I dont train for sport.

 

I have seen many top class Okinawan Gojuryu Karate-ka perform Kata the same way we do, but of course using their Kata. Hard styles tend to practise Kata that way.

 

I was merely pointing out that the way others train in the same Kata looks strange for me. I didnt say it was wrong for others to do that. Thats their choice. Its just not my personal choice to train that way.

 

Personally I dont see the point in light blocks and light punches. In my younger day when I was young, over confident and somewhat arrogant, I got into many street fights, undefeated I might add, and I experienced first hand what its like.

 

When I worked in the mines in Western Australia for one year preparing for two years in Japan, I got involved in many organised and somewhat barbaric bare knuckle boxing bouts. Again I was undefeated and I apply those experiences to to my training. A real fight demands massive explosive power and thats what one must assimulate and inculcate with Karate training. That is my personal opinion.

 

I am well aware that some schools practise them differently and for various reasons. I dont agree with that philosophy.

 

May I make a suggestion? Pick a Kata and go through it at full force, I mean really put 100% power and speed into each movement and see how hard it is.

 

Do that and then tell me its easy and not good training

 

Some Karate-ka practise Karate like a marathoner runs a marathon. Long slow distance. Others practise Kata like a sprinter, all out speed and power.

 

Without going on too long here, I would humbly suggest you study some of the scientific research that the world class boxers have access to. Its very interesting.

 

Sadly Karate hasnt invested that kind of money into research. But we can benefit from the boxing research.

 

Really what you are talking about is aerobic work and I am talking anaerobic work. Thats the difference here.

 

"To develop kicks that will knock your sparring opponent backward, you need to moderate your aerobic training and specifically develop the high intensity, anaerobic system.

 

You need some aerobic capacity, that is certain. But the ability to end a street fight in a few seconds or even last several rounds in sparring does not require an ability to run five miles.

 

Instead, you should perform some form of aerobic training for 20 minutes in duration, 3 to 4 times per week, at approximately 70% of your maximum heart rate (220 minus your age). Then, with the time that you may have previously spent in endurance training, train your high-intensity, powerful energy system.

 

One way to do this is with resistance training in the form of squats or lunges. To develop maximum force and power, you will want to cycle through a training plan that leads you to eventually performing sets with a high load (weight) and few repetitions. This type of training will develop the explosiveness of your kicks, the type that ends a street fight in a matter of seconds.

 

Or, if you are a tournament fighter and need the ability to perform several rounds, you will want to develop your local muscular endurance (LME). To do this with resistance training, you go to the other extreme than what was described for developing power. For LME, use very light weights and perform many repetitions, perhaps 20 to 25. This will develop your ability to deliver successive kicks in a tournament format.

 

Besides resistance training, you can perform short bursts of high intensity effort on the heavy bag and on the running track in the form of sprints, which is much more beneficial for the development of your power than running for 30 minutes or more. LESS AEROBIC TRAINING MEANS GREATER KICKING POWER by Christopher D. Hess, SMAC

 

Have a great day and may your training be blessed

[harleyt26]

My sensei has us do our kata three times slow and pretty with everything absolutly in perfect position and with correct stances.Then we do it three times as fast as we can without power.Then three times as hard and fast as we can.Then we do applications to the kata.Then we move on to the next kata.We do not do any competeing at all but we practice some forms from a low stance and practice blasting in from that low position.Some of our forms are what I call more practical, IMHO,in the stances being from a more upright easily transitional position. Tom

[Sauzin]

First off to the poster's original comments.

 

Mattys, a more legitimately Okinawan art then Okinawan Kenpo does not exist. While Okinawan Kenpo could be accurately coined as the "mutt" of Okinawan arts this is not a negative aspect. Shigero Nakimura and Odo networked well. They exchanged and worked advanced techniques with the best of other Okinawan arts, both improving and adding to their own pedigree, which might I add is legit. Okinawan Kenpo originates from a Naha-te art. This is why you see kata like Sanchin, Seisan, and Niseishi in our art. You mentioned that you were watching video's of kata that looked very different, well if you were looking at some of these kata and comparing to Goju-ryu, Isshin-ryu, or Ueichi-ryu then you would definately see differences. Because we have a very unique naha-te lineage which you can be very proud of. A more advanced and knowledgeable kata technician then Seikichi Odo has not and likely never will exhist. Oyata (which Shorinryuu briefly mentioned) was known as the sloppier of the two students of Nakimura.

 

I guess what I am saying is that your sensei would have had to have exerted effort to not learn very advanced grappling, pressure point, and fluid principles from his teachers in order for him to have only basic knowledge. Because the people he studied with and the art he practices has these things and more.

 

When I first began to study Okinawan Kenpo I was coming from a Goju background and I didn't have a very high opinion of Okinawan Kenpo, Shorin-ryu or other "outside fighters". But let me tell you what I found.

 

-You will never find a more powerful punch then what is practiced by Okinawan Kenpo.

 

-You will never find more fluidity in hard and soft then what is practiced in Okinawan Kenpo.

 

-You will never find a karate with more throws then what is practiced in Okinawan Kenpo.

 

-You will never find a more powerful bo strike then what is practiced in Okinawan Kenpo.

 

-You will never find more dynamic hip movement then what is practiced in Okinawan Kenpo.

 

-You will never find more technical depth then what is practiced in Okinawan Kenpo kata.

 

You may find other arts that have different things. You may find other arts are as good. But at these things you won't find better.

 

Mattys, depending on your rank it is very possible that your sensei is waiting to teach you some things until you get the basics down. Because it's through proper application of those basics that that everything else works. Each sensei is different, but if he practices Okinawan Kenpo I would assume the best and see what's what from there.

[Sauzin]

And to AnonymousOne's post. I agree with aspects of what you are saying. In karate fast intense workouts are good. Also kata must have focus. It should feel like a fight. But where you and I differ is I don't think it necessarily has to look like a fight from to an outside observer. Take older styles of Tai-chi for example. Slow movements with intense focus were (and still are in some places) used to develop extreme accuracy, technical precision, fluidity, and yes even bursts of tremendous power and speed. That's right they trained slow to move fast. Seems like a paradox but it works. I've both seen it and experienced it. And I think focus is the key. If you are just lazily going through the motions without intent then you really need to step back and re-evaluate the purpose of what you are doing. Can every movement have purpose unless they are guided by focus and intent? I think not. The same goes true with those who go through their kata too quickly, rushing towards the end. The end doesn't matter, its how you get there that makes the difference. In my mind, speed is inconsequential. If you have the technique biomechanically correct in timing and alignment and you have focus, then moving at whatever speed is necessary will come naturally. I don't think it is necessary to power through each technique to achieve this. In many ways I think that doing that would actually be detrimental to understanding what is in the transitions. In other words I think you might miss something in between.

 

One man's dance is another man's fluid redirection and manipulation of an opponent’s technique. Another thing to think about is how many boxers train in deep stances as much as Shotokan does? Most karate mixes it up a bit in their kata.

[mattys]

Since it seems to keep comming out a bit, my rank is sankyu.

[Sauzin]

At what is traditionally your first brown belt rank it is very possible that your instructor is still requiring you to focus on the basics. Chances are he's shown you some other techniques as well. Perhaps he's shown you a few different ways to apply your blocks. But it would not be improper for him to still have you focused on improving your basics. Why don't you try asking him when these other aspects might be addressed in his class or at what rank/level he expects you to take on these other aspects?

 

In regards to the comparisons you've made. Could you provide a few more specific examples and perhaps some links. Maybe we can talk about these comparisons in how the techniques differ more specifically.