Learning kata out of order?

[cross]

I actually began learning Heian Nidan off the internet and when the time came to actually perform it, I was the most advanced in the class. However, a classmate later came up to me and casually asked, "So where'd you learn Nidan?" BUSTED. But it was alright because he had been doing the same thing and we ended up exchanging URLs.

 

The problem that arises from this is that you may be able to perform the kata so it "looks" like the photos/videos you are seeing on the net, but if there are techniques you havnt come across before its hard to get a feel for whats going on, let alone understanding what they are used for.

[June1]

Exactly! It's the transition from one movement to another that you need to learn from an instructor in order to make sure you are doing it correctly.

[cross]

It's the transition from one movement to another that you need to learn from an instructor in order to make sure you are doing it correctly.

 

And often small errors in the techniques themselves can come about when they are not explained in full before you start playing with them.

[vertigo]

I actually began learning Heian Nidan off the internet and when the time came to actually perform it, I was the most advanced in the class. However, a classmate later came up to me and casually asked, "So where'd you learn Nidan?" BUSTED. But it was alright because he had been doing the same thing and we ended up exchanging URLs.

 

The problem that arises from this is that you may be able to perform the kata so it "looks" like the photos/videos you are seeing on the net, but if there are techniques you havnt come across before its hard to get a feel for whats going on, let alone understanding what they are used for.

 

Very good points, cross. You're not alone, June1.. at the beginning of this year, after I got my orange belt, we were not taught Nidan right away either... although I'm in a class with mostly white belts (most days, I'm the highest rank).. so after two weeks, I decided I had better at least halfway know what's going on if/when he taught the class it... so I searched around and found a .mpeg file of the kata. I watched it a few times, and picked up the general motion of the kata, just to the point where I knew the outside movements of the kata.

 

Then, finally, after 3 weeks, our class finally started learning Heian Nidan. I knew generally what the movements would be like, but had not practiced them to the point where I was teaching myself wrong. Our sensei went over applications for almost every move in the kata (with me as "punching dummy"... I love that job! learn more ).. and it was very easy to pick up. Did knowing the kata a little bit help coming in? Not necessarily, considering we went over that in class, but I don't think it hurt too much in this situation. As long as you don't "teach" yourself the kata (i.e. repetitiously practicing what you see on a video without learning application or correct technique), I don't think it would hurt to look at your next kata. (I'm already starting to look at Sandan a little bit, even though I'm still perfecting Nidan for my upcoming test.. still need to get that side snap higher; gets me every time )

[Shorin Ryuu]

I'd also be lying if I said I never "taught" myself a kata off of a video. For the most part, I've only done so in cases where I would have an instructor (or in the immediate future) who would be be able to correct me and show me in person how it's done. If anything, it sped up the process by not having to spend class time learning the rough pattern and movements. Instead, class time could be spent correcting and fine-tuning them.

 

Of course, it is far easier to learn "simpler" kata like Pinan Nidan (Heian Nidan is the Japanese version of it) through videos. I have been guilty of learning much more complex kata than that via video, with instances of success and other not-so-successful instances. Even in the former category (I taught myself a very long nunchaku kata), I was able to make the usually simple adjustments without incredible effort.

 

So I'm a fan of using videos to help you learn things for the first time provided you have an instructor or have yourself a decent enough critical eye for martial arts (although if it's something like kata, the obvious warnings apply here).

 

I'm also a fan of using videos to help you learn even after you've memorized the movements and patterns of the kata. Video technology is amazing in that it lets you watch great people perform kata over and over again. It isn't too long ago that people didn't have this opportunity. You just have to make sure if you change something to make the way your kata is similar to theirs, you understand why you're doing it that way. Once again, you have to avoid the temptation to become a great mirror.

[cross]

Im not against the use of video to aid your training, i think its great if you can pick-up some things you might be missing or not quiet sure on. I myself have used videos of higher ranked karateka to get an idea of timing and so on for kata i had just learned.

 

In saying that im sure everyone agrees that video is no substitute for proper instruction.

[pers]

Books and videos should be used as an aid to your dojo training under a qualified instructer ,in other words these can not be a substitute to learning in dojo .I would personally not rush to learn new katas before shodan .much practice is needed to perfect and understand kyu grade katas .the more you advance in learning each kata it would serve you much when you come to advance katas .

 

there is no short cut in karate ,all the katas are there for a purpose .

 

it is much better to know and understand and perform the kata of your grade than try and do a kata that is beyond one's understanding at the time .it is not just about copying the moves but one must come to the level of understanding through proper instruction.

[Skeptic 2004]

Personally, I say stick to the sequence; the learning order of the kata is in that arrangement for a reason. But, if you just rarin' to go, then read on.

 

I would have to endorse the idea of becoming familiar with "the next kata" through careful observation of someone performing it either in person or on video (from still shots in a book is out of the question), but I would advise against trying to teach it to yourself ahead of time/out of sequence. This is because in absence of proper instruction, you'll end up learning it wrong; wrong maybe not necessarily in pattern or execution [if you have a critical eye], but there are subtleties you won't catch until it is taught to you, and you will more than likely develop bad habits. Then you'll end up wasting time unlearning whatever bad habits you had developed.

 

When I say familiarize, I mean acquaint yourself with the gross movements - key word gross. It's okay to have your body get the general idea, but when you start to try to teach yourself the specifics, this is where the bad habits will usually form in absence of proper instruction. (e.g. familiarity with gross movements - "turn left, knife hand block, reverse punch." e.g. trying to teach yourself specifics - "turn left 45 degrees pivoting on left ball of foot into cat stance, knife hand block, curl left hand as if grabbing and pulling opponent into you, reverse punch with right hand").

 

Shorin and I taught ourselves a few kata "out of sequence" via video in absence of our instructor. When we found an instructor who knew these kata and were trying to teach them to us, in the cases where we had tried to teach ourselves the specifics we ended up spending a good portion of our time unlearning bad habits. In cases when we were familiar with the overall gross movements, we learned the kata properly very quickly.

 

I wouldn't encourage expending a lot time and energy into jumping the gun and trying to figure out the nitty-gritty of an out of sequence kata by yourself when those resources should be devoted to refining and perfecting the kata you should already know. If you want to learn kata out of sequence, I encourage you to look at, study, and familiarize yourself with it if you desire. When you have studied and are familiar with the gross movments of your out of sequence kata, when you instructor finally teaches it to you properly, you will pick it up quickly, and there won't be any bad habits to unlearn.

[lilsempai]

I've learnt kata above my grade for almost a year now (in Karate). This is because I started studying a style of Koshin Ki that started with the kata that was equivalent for third kyu in Kokoro Karate. I can tell you that it isn't as great as it sounds - you don't learn as much from the techniques until you learn the bunkai (much more difficult for high-grade kata), so you have to be good enough to prove to your sensei and your fellow students that you haven't bitten off more than you can chew.

 

(I managed this for the most part, but it has caused problems with some higher grades.)

[strangepair03]

I personally have used videos to "learn" kata, not Isshin-Ryu kata but the corresponding styles kata...Shorin and Goju seisan, Goju seiunchin and sanchin, Shorin naihanchi shodan, wansu, chinto, and kusanku dai...obviously not anywhere even close to a Shorin or Goju practitioner, but just to see where the Isshin katas come from, and the diffrences found. It has been a great learning experience for me but I would not attempt to learn Isshin katas this way, way to many movements lost in translation.

 

Just my ramblings