Tang Soo Do Hyung

[Gyte]

Yes, only the forms that Hwang Kee borrowed from Shotokan are associated to animals. But the question remains. Why is this not so in Shotokan? Since that is where they originally came from. It looks like animal attribution to forms was added later on, when they were practised in Tang Soo Do.

 

I have read somewhere that Hwang Kee has trained at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan (later renamed Ji Do Kwan) for a short period of time. This school, which was located in Seoul, taught Judo, Shotokan Karate and Kwon Bup (chinese martial arts and also called Chuan Fa), when Hwang Kee was training there. This school also attributes animals to the Shotokan forms. Perhaps Hwang Kee got the animal attribution from here.

 

My guess is that since in Chuan Fa a lot of animal styles are practised, the teachers of Chosun Yun Moo Kwan (who both taught Shotokan and Chuan Fa) began "recognizing" animal based techniques in Shotokan forms and later also began attributing animals to these forms. This just a wild guess of course, I could be totally wrong.

Edited March 14, 2005 by Gyte

[JaseP]

Yes, only the forms that Hwang Kee borrowed from Shotokan are associated to animals. But the question remains. Why is this not so in Shotokan? Since that is where they originally came from. It looks like animal attribution to forms was added later on, when they were practised in Tang Soo Do.

 

Actually, the forms attributed to Shotokan had roots in Chinese White Crane kung fu.

I have read somewhere that Hwang Kee has trained at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan (later renamed Ji Do Kwan) for a short period of time. This school, which was located in Seoul, taught Judo, Shotokan Karate and Kwon Bup (chinese martial arts and also called Chuan Fa), when Hwang Kee was training there. This school also attributes animals to the Shotokan forms. Perhaps Hwang Kee got the animal attribution from here.

 

Hwang Kee never trained at the Jido Kwan. He might have attended seminars but Hwang Kee NEVER studied Shotokan. As for the origins of the Pyung Ahn and other hyung, He had found a book describing them in the Seoul train station (Yong San Station) library, where he worked for the railroad. The Jio Kwan was founded in 1946, and the Moo Duk Kwan was founded around the same time... so the Jido Kwan and the Moo Duk Kwan were more peers in the Kwan system than parent and child.

 

Hwang Kee only ever had one instructor, and that was a man in China that he trained with during the WWII era. He also claimed to have studied the training of an old Korean Tae Kyun/ Kwon Bop master who refused to take students (for fear of Japanese reprisals)... He imitated the man's movements and became proficient. When he was 21 years old, he was widely regarded as a martial arts expert.

 

So there is not much creedence in him being a student at the Jido Kwan.

My guess is that since in Chuan Fa a lot of animal styles are practised, the teachers of Chosun Yun Moo Kwan (who both taught Shotokan and Chuan Fa) began "recognizing" animal based techniques in Shotokan forms and later also began attributing animals to these forms. This just a wild guess of course, I could be totally wrong.

 

My guess is that their animal associations were taken from research into their Chinese White Crane roots... The forms, however, as practiced in Tang Soo Do are closer to the Okinawan way of doing them than the Chinese root.

[TSD Y049]

Thank you Master Powlette. I am not very good at puting things into words like that, I am completly on your side I don't no where Gyte is getting his info but it is obviously a mis informed person or an unreliable source!

 

[JaseP]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that he's unreliable,... it's just that people with a Shotokan background often misinterpret the fact that we share a common forms base to believe that Tang Soo Do is a Korean Shotokan rip-off. That fact is the borrowing was intentional, for "marketing" reasons, if you will (Hwa Soo Do was just plain unpopular until KJN Hwang changed the name of the style to Tang Soo Do, and incorporated the familiar form set).

[Gyte]

Hee you guys,

 

please excuse me if I made a negative impression. I'm not trying to bash Tang Soo Do, I do very much like the art. As a teenager I studied Tang Soo Do for just a year. I had a conflict with my teacher so I stopped and went on to Shotokan. Thanks to my training in Tang Soo Do I'm one of the better kickers in my Shotokan school.

Actually, the forms attributed to Shotokan had roots in Chinese White Crane kung fu.

Yes, that's very true. So that would make the animal attributions to forms like turtle, horse, snake, eagle, bear, mantis quite illogical. Don't you think?

Hwang Kee never trained at the Jido Kwan. He might have attended seminars but Hwang Kee NEVER studied Shotokan. As for the origins of the Pyung Ahn and other hyung, He had found a book describing them in the Seoul train station (Yong San Station) library, where he worked for the railroad. The Jio Kwan was founded in 1946, and the Moo Duk Kwan was founded around the same time... so the Jido Kwan and the Moo Duk Kwan were more peers in the Kwan system than parent and child.

 

Hwang Kee only ever had one instructor, and that was a man in China that he trained with during the WWII era. He also claimed to have studied the training of an old Korean Tae Kyun/ Kwon Bop master who refused to take students (for fear of Japanese reprisals)... He imitated the man's movements and became proficient. When he was 21 years old, he was widely regarded as a martial arts expert.

 

So there is not much creedence in him being a student at the Jido Kwan.

I didn't say he was a student of Jido Kwan, but he did train with masters such as Chun Sang Sup of the Yeon Moo Kwan and Lee Won Kuk of the Chung Do Kwan. This happened after he was unsuccesful with the martial art he was teaching, Hwa Soo Do. It was from these masters he got the idea to incorporate Shotokan forms into his teachings and in addition he changed the name of his art into Tang Soo Do, a term coined by Lee Won Kuk. Lee Won Kuk even claimed that Hwang Kee was a student of him, but Hwang Kee denied this.

My guess is that their animal associations were taken from research into their Chinese White Crane roots... The forms, however, as practiced in Tang Soo Do are closer to the Okinawan way of doing them than the Chinese root.

How could Hwang Kee or some other Tang Soo Do master have researched that? I don't think they had the means for it. Even in Shotokan it is hard to research something like that. The forms practised in Shotokan are derived from Okinawan forms. It is known that many of these Okinawan forms came from China. However this isn't traceble anymore, because there are no similar forms practised in China. The chinese styles from where these forms came from either don't exist anymore or have evolved beyond recognition.

[TSDforChrist]

My guess would be his training in China - Have you ever studied with a person who trains in another art? Especially CMA - you will find that when you are talking about technique, someone else is always "oh, that's a such and such" or "oh, those techniques are such-and-such an animal". Familiarity with which tecqhniques are associated with which animal would lead to a (very) educated guess. And too, TSD has diverged so much within itself - I recently studied with an Okinawan Shuri-Ryu practitioner, who does many of the same forms, who commented that mine were so different and looked Chinese to him. Strange, huh?

[Gyte]

My guess would be his training in China - Have you ever studied with a person who trains in another art? Especially CMA - you will find that when you are talking about technique, someone else is always "oh, that's a such and such" or "oh, those techniques are such-and-such an animal". Familiarity with which tecqhniques are associated with which animal would lead to a (very) educated guess. And too, TSD has diverged so much within itself - I recently studied with an Okinawan Shuri-Ryu practitioner, who does many of the same forms, who commented that mine were so different and looked Chinese to him. Strange, huh?

I said something like this in my early post, but I suggested that it were the teachers of Chosun Yun Moo Kwan who added the animal attribution to the forms. But it could have also been Hwang Kee himself. Then the teachers of Chosun Yun Moo Kwan learned it from him. I don't really have any information on this. Sure would like to know who invented it.

[JaseP]

The original Jido Kwan instructor disappeared during the Korean war (killed/captured?), and another took over the school after him,... So my guess is that this was an attribution shared by many of the Kwan Jangs right after WWII, and not Hwang Kees attribution or those of the Jido Kwan (or under it's older name, Chosun Yun Moo Kwan)...

 

Not that's we'll be able to ask Hwang Kee anymore...

[tsdshep]

i dont were you people get thinking tsd is shotokan its not now or never has ben and will neve be shotocan some form have similer movements but gm hwangkee never studeyd shotocan we did not take anythang froun thear arts and as said befor the only pure arts in theam selfs are arneas and savat all othe martal arets history can froum a budest monk that came froum india and brought it 2 china iiiiiiiyou guys should listne 2 what jaesp has 2 say he seem right on the money with his history

[TSD Y049]

i dont were you people get thinking tsd is shotokan its not now or never has ben and will neve be shotocan

No one ever said that Tang Soo Do is Shotokan, besides if look closely for the name

TSD Y049, I agree with JaseP also, and I'm sure others think the same but they did not point it out their posts!!!!

I, as a Tang Soo Do pratictioner understtand where are coming from because I do not want to be associated with Shotokan either, but I'm not going to go around putting things out of context to make my point!!!