The TKD Shotokan Connection. (Sounds like a bond flick)

[ZakariRu]

So I am currently training with this TKD club, not being able to find a shotokan school that doesnt suck in my area.

 

All I have to say is WTF?

 

3000 year old martial art that has the EXACT same stances as shotokan.

 

Only shotokan practioners have better looking technique.

 

I used to compete at AAU TKD tournaments as a Tang Soo Do competitor. What a coincidence. Passai looks exactly like the shotokan version of Bassai-dai. TSD has all the japanese forms. with OKINAWIAN NAMES.

 

General Choi stayed in Japan for a few years before moving back to korea and founding TKD right? Wasn't Korea just getting finished being culturely beaten and brutalized by occupying japan?

 

Am I smoking crack here? I want to slap my TKD instructor and tell her to Stop lying to students about where all the poomse come from.

 

How do you tell 100,000 martial artist they are being lied to.

 

Funakoshi's Dojo-Kun (Funakoshi died before TKD was founded but his dojo kun is still hung on alot of shotokan walls.)

 

Seek Perfection of character.

 

Be faithful

 

Endeavor

 

Respect Others.

 

Refrain from violence. (refrain from acting violently on impulse makes more sense)

 

(this is a typical bad translation)

 

The Tennants of TKD?

 

Courtesy

 

Integrity

 

perseverance

 

self control

 

Indomitable spirit.

 

Possibilities? It was translated to korean then to english. Giving us a korean to english translation that is almost as vague as the japanese to english.

 

I enjoy tkd, i have a decent instructor with alot of sparring know-how.

 

I dont enjoy how we have thousands upon thousands of people who believe everything they are told by their martial arts instructors.

 

Thanks for reading the rant guys.

[Shorin Ryuu]

Yes. It is surprising how little questioning of history is done by even hardcore students of "traditional" martial arts. But, that really goes for people in all styles.

 

It's funny, because I was just talking to someone about this exact same topic earlier today.

[Dragn]

I watched a guy practising a pinan kata which was almost exactly the same as one of the ITF TKD hyungs I practised many years ago.

 

Anybody know more about exactly what and where Gen Choi practised?

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Gen. Choi trained - as did some other taekwondo founders (yes, taekwondo is under 60 years old - pretty exactly 60 if we're optimistic and count its age from the founding of Chung Do Kwan in 1944) - under Funakoshi's students in university club. LEE, Won Kuk (founder of Chung Do Kwan) trained under Gichin Funakoshi in Shotokan.

 

Other karate teachers that taught taekwondo's founders were Kenwa Mabuni (Shito-ryu) and Kanken Toyama (Shudokan). It shouldn't be a surprise that taekwondo's basic techniques are pretty much 1:1 to Itosu-lineage Shorin-ryu, since these three men (Funakoshi, Mabuni and Toyama) were Itosu's students.

 

More: A Modern History of Taekwondo.

[ZakariRu]

Thanks alot Jussi.

[isshinryu5toforever]

General Choi only received a green belt after studying Shotokan for 8 months at a Japanese dojo. Then he went to the newly elected president, and said you know we should have a national sport, some sort of martial art. The president said, alright, you're in charge. So, General Choi went to one of his friends who was a black belt and asked him to do the whole thing, but of course Choi got the credit. So they taught what was then called something else which escapes me at this very moment. Then the Kwan families got together (Ji Do Kwan, Mu Duk Kwan, etc.) to figure out what they should call the new sport. After a while the name Tae Kwon Do was chosen. All of the poomsae were the same as the Shotokan ones. Then it came time for the 1988 Olympics in Seoul. Then, someone said, you know what, all of our poomsae are Japanese. We need truly Korean forms. So, the Taeguk forms were created to be demonstrated. Thus the World Tae Kwon Do Federation who has their headquarters in Kukkiwon (thus the Kukkiwon federation) does Taeguk forms in lieu of the original TKD/Shotokan poomsae/kata done by the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. There are a few more gory details, but this is a good overview.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I have watched many of the the local TKD classes and demonstrations and I cringe everytime the instructor or one of his black belt students says "Our martial art is over 2,000 years old." I just want to jump up and yell ....well....you know (Hey Patrick, I restrained myself this time! ).

[tkdBill]

I have watched many of the the local TKD classes and demonstrations and I cringe everytime the instructor or one of his black belt students says "Our martial art is over 2,000 years old."

 

I always say that Taekwondo is a modern martial art who's roots go back to Chinese martial arts that are 2000 years old.

 

Not only a better sales pitch, but hopefully more accurate...

 

--

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I have watched many of the the local TKD classes and demonstrations and I cringe everytime the instructor or one of his black belt students says "Our martial art is over 2,000 years old."

 

I always say that Taekwondo is a modern martial art who's roots go back to Chinese martial arts that are 2000 years old.

 

Not only a better sales pitch, but hopefully more accurate...

 

--

 

Well, I guess I could say my martial arts is a few MILLION years old...if I want to count back to when the first caveman learned to make a fist and found it knocked somebody down...then he taught the technique to somebody else.

[Jussi Häkkinen]

General Choi only received a green belt after studying Shotokan for 8 months at a Japanese dojo.

 

General Choi received 1. or 2. dan, which was common to a person who had studied karate in university for more than one year. Times were a bit different than they were now.

Then he went to the newly elected president, and said you know we should have a national sport

 

Interesting story. However, I recommend you that Modern History -text that I sent a link to before.

The president said, alright, you're in charge. So, General Choi went to one of his friends who was a black belt and asked him to do the whole thing, but of course Choi got the credit.

 

Well, no. Read the text, it explains it. Choi was never "in charge" in Korea (except in ROK Army) and there were several people with black belts (most noteworthy was LEE Won Kuk, who had received a 4. dan from Gichin Funakoshi himself and actually begin with teaching Shotokan karate in his own school, Chung Do Kwan, in 1944).

 

There is quite a lot of data available from those days and Choi actually isn't as central character as many would claim him to be. He most probably came up with the name - taekwondo - but technique-wise the taekwondo was mostly crafted by others (when talking about Kukkiwon-taekwondo that is often known by its competition organization, WTF, and which is an official Olympic event. ITF and its content are a brainchild of Choi during his exile).

Then the Kwan families got together (Ji Do Kwan, Mu Duk Kwan, etc.) to figure out what they should call the new sport.

 

Umm, partly yes, partly no.

All of the poomsae were the same as the Shotokan ones. Then it came time for the 1988 Olympics in Seoul.

 

Well...no. Shotokan/Shorin -kata were used in beginning, but first poomsae series were created a lot earlier than 1988. Korea had a huge nationality boom after being released from Japanese reign, so taekwondo was heavily changed. Techniques remained same, but poomsae were rearranged (creating a series called Palqwe) and new history was crafted to boost nationality.

Then, someone said, you know what, all of our poomsae are Japanese. We need truly Korean forms. So, the Taeguk forms were created to be demonstrated.

 

Taegeuk were created after Palqwe series. I believe that main reason was to simplify the lower grade poomsae and to make the road towards competition circles easier. Palqwe series were omitted after creation of Taegeuk-series.

There are a few more gory details, but this is a good overview.

 

Read the Modern History. It is just one view, but covers the area still pretty reliably - and other trustworthy sources generally seem to reinforce the claims of it. It also covers the claims you have made here, perhaps binding it together better.