Christians and Ki/Chi

[stonecrusher69]

ki/chi is sort of like religion in that its a personal thing you decide to beilve in.Its hard to prove or disprove.I think chi is just boi electicial engery that we produce from the food we eat and the air be breath.thats all.

[SenseiMike]

Yes it is real, but to really master it, I think that your faith might limit it you. Ki requires a lot of esoteric beliefs to fully understand and ultilize. I guess it depends on your particular christain belief system. In my christain back ground it was a huge no-no tho.

[Kajukenbopr]

i'm not entirely sure what i believe about ki (chi) and am waiting until later in my training to make any evaluation...

i'm a cathlic christain and have never had any problem with believing in both ki and christianity...it's crossed my mind several times that perhaps ki and God are essentially the same thing? why not? going more into the spiritual realm-has anyone read the "Power of Intention"? it details a net of energy that can be tapped into and is always working for the good of the universe. Deepak Chopra also talks about God in conjunction with a network of energies he calls "soul" always working for good.

can your soul be ki? and if so, can God be your soul? then can God be ki?

or is ki a neutral enegry source? in which case ki COULD be soul because it's inside of everything and you sort of affect it...right? ki is often referred to along with "aura" etc so it can't be too much of a stretch...

as to the holy spirit and ki...if ki is neutral i don't think that's possible since the holy spirit works for the GOOD of the universe. so if ki is neutral and ki can be tapped into and used any which way and since the holy spirit is often said to "transform" and make holy etc that wouldn't quite work...

but i could be entirely wrong. who knows.

when you reach "can your soul be ki? and if so, can God be your soul? then can God be ki?"

This is where it creates the conflict between your religion and your training(ki). if you keep following what you just said, you will being to think as if you were God, since God is ki, and God is your soul and then you compare God to ki- you are suggesting that you can control God and that God is balanced and willed in you(by yourself) because of your training???

Trying to avoid this conclusions is why they say religion and taoist(or budhist)filosophy dont mix.

[SenseiMike]

i'm not entirely sure what i believe about ki (chi) and am waiting until later in my training to make any evaluation...

i'm a cathlic christain and have never had any problem with believing in both ki and christianity...it's crossed my mind several times that perhaps ki and God are essentially the same thing? why not? going more into the spiritual realm-has anyone read the "Power of Intention"? it details a net of energy that can be tapped into and is always working for the good of the universe. Deepak Chopra also talks about God in conjunction with a network of energies he calls "soul" always working for good.

can your soul be ki? and if so, can God be your soul? then can God be ki?

or is ki a neutral enegry source? in which case ki COULD be soul because it's inside of everything and you sort of affect it...right? ki is often referred to along with "aura" etc so it can't be too much of a stretch...

as to the holy spirit and ki...if ki is neutral i don't think that's possible since the holy spirit works for the GOOD of the universe. so if ki is neutral and ki can be tapped into and used any which way and since the holy spirit is often said to "transform" and make holy etc that wouldn't quite work...

but i could be entirely wrong. who knows.

when you reach "can your soul be ki? and if so, can God be your soul? then can God be ki?"

This is where it creates the conflict between your religion and your training(ki). if you keep following what you just said, you will being to think as if you were God, since God is ki, and God is your soul and then you compare God to ki- you are suggesting that you can control God and that God is balanced and willed in you(by yourself) because of your training???

Trying to avoid this conclusions is why they say religion and taoist(or budhist)filosophy dont mix.

Budhism believes that a creator does exist, and that as we were created by such a being, we are a part of that being, and yes in our own lives we are in a way our own god(s). We believe the physical world to be a mere illusion that our mind creates for us so that we may experience things that would not be posible without a physical world. Ki is everything, the world is Ki, we are Ki, it unifies us, it is part of us, thus we are a part of everything.

I was raised christain but left on my own accord, eventually Ki study combined with scientific research lead me to Budhism. The phiosophy of which has greatly improved my abilities

I really don't feel that you can make much progrees in it without conflicting your faith.

[SenseiMike]

I've been a Christian for 12 years and I've been doing some increaser on Ki lately trying to figure out what I think of it .Is it a real force? Is it okay for Christians to use? What do the Bible say about it?

Any input on the subject would be great.

This will tick off people that believe in it, but NO. it is not a supernatural force.

I've spent the last few years researching this and have found many things that show its a result of natural developments in the body.

For example, the breaking of a single board or brick in a stack can be duplicated with a machine- no spiritual force there. It's a matter of force, acceleration and how far the techniques is stopped in the top piece.

I can literally spend almost and hour and a half lecturing on this topic, so I can't write everything here.

As an example, I've taught aikido's "unbendable arm" to non martial artists in less than 2 minutes without teaching anything about ki. It's a matter of what's called relaxed tension and correct body alignment. Also you get better at it over time because the individual tricep muscle fibers become better at firing all at one time the more you practice this. The strength increase from this natural development alone is amazing. This is why a 70 year old man that's been doing this for 50 years can resist a 30 yr old muscle bound practitioner. Also, when you look at the videos the uke are all tensed up. This robs tremendous amounts of power from their efforts due to several physiological factors. I've ticked off a few "unbendable arm" practitioners by using the same principles, mentioned above, they use to hold their arm straight when I bend their arm. They first assume I have "strong ki". When I explain to them what I did, they get upset because the explanation is contradictory to their "belief system".

Here's a post I made on another forum about kiais, stopping people with "ki" in a kiai and "killer kiai"

There is no DOCUMENTED case of someone being killed by a kiai. By documented, I mean an incident where independent witnesses could verify the story. Independent means students of the person making the claim are NOT the source.

 

What I will describe here is one viewpoint on the kiai, so many will probably disagree. Although this is a long post, I'll try to keep it as short as possible by not going into intricate detail.

 

There's a lot of myth circulating around a kiai. Part of this is from MA history where a physiological reaction is explained from a spiritual perspective. This is understandable as there is much about the internal workings of the body that were unknown at the time.

 

Before talking about what makes a correct kiai and why, let's look at the physiological effects of a correct kiai on the karateka. The effect on the practitioner is two fold. With a correct kiai, there will be a slight flush in the practitioner, the pulse rate elevates slightly, and in some cases, the hair on the back of the neck or even the arms will stand up. This is very similar to the reaction caused by an adrenaline rush. Some studies were performed that showed certain noises can produce an adrenaline rush in the body, regardless of the source. They also found deep regulated breathing allows you to "control" the adrenaline rush.

 

Note the effects of breathing in the following quote: "As described by Jim Viceroy, a Chicago-area exercise physiologist and sports psychology consultant, the body works like a piston-stretching and contracting, storing energy and releasing it-while executing a volleyball slam.

 

Says Viceroy: "Your body goes through a series of cocking all your joints.

 

Your hips cocks and your trunk cocks, your elbow and your wrist-like rubber bands. You store elastic energy, you create the most tension possible in the body, and you increase the range of motion, including the chest. By taking a nice deep breath, you're presetting your muscles, stretching them. And so when you exhale, if you do it correctly, you'll get this whole marshaling of all those muscles at the same time, and this generates enormous force. Therefore you have more velocity, more power.

 

The effect is partially psychological; much like the kiai, the shout of

 

the martial artist, it breaks down inhibitions and intimidates the opponent.

 

Of course, the force generated by the kiai would propel a backhanded tennis ball over the fence."

Comment- earlier in the article, they explain that a "nice deep breath" means breathing with the diaphragm.

Summary- The physiological/psychological effects of a kiai performed at the right time, help synchronize the movement with the kiai, firing the "cocked" muscles and creating a strong mental intent that breaks down inhibitions that would keep you from releasing your full strength.

The rapid release of breath in the kiai, coupled with the increased adrenaline results in a noticeable jump in power (increased strength from increased adrenaline is a well documented phenomena). In addition, the forced deep inhalation also helps the practitioner utilize the adrenaline rush in a "fight" response rather than a flight response. One of the things kata practice does is aid in teaching you to control your breathing and link it to your movements.

He did mention the effect on the opponent. Let's take a quick look at that. Short, loud noises create the fight or flight reaction. This happens in species other than man. Example of such noises would be the initial clap of thunder, a pot dropped on the floor behind you, someone sneaking up behind you and yelling 'boo' loudly.

Many times this will cause a momentary hesitation before the flight reaction takes over. The same thing happens with a proper kiai. It will induce a temporary "flight response" in your opponent, which can cause a pause in their movement and thought processes. This gives you a great advantage. The only thing is, the more often you kiai against an opponent, the less effect it has.

I use this as a training tool with my students. I have literally stopped them in their tracks during ippon on either their attack or counter. I work with them and tell them to learn to continue in spite of the kiai. They get better over time, although a kiai at an unexpected moment can still freeze them. You can see it rob power from a more advanced student's technique when delivered unexpectedly. (Stand behind them and kiai).

The fact that a strong kiai breaks down inhibitions can be seen when teaching people to kiai. Hence- the teaching that a strong kiai= a strong fighting spirit. A beginners initial kiais are weak and ineffective. Making them stand and practice their kiai can often induce giggles and smiles in beginners. Ask them why and they'll say "it just seems funny". When they can get past the social conditioning (don't yell or raise your voice) and really cut loose with a good kiai, this mentally sets them up for delivering full power techniques. I get a chuckle when I see a beginner produce their first good kiai and actually startle themselves

Now onto a proper kiai-

First- the air should be forced out using the diaphragm

Second- it should be SHORT. No Bruce Lee drawn out waahhh's, eeee's and oooohhh's. (sorry BL fans, but that was for the movies).

Third- it should be LOUD

Fourth- the sound should be produced without any consonants. The reason for this is making a consonant sound like the 'k' in kiai restricts the breathing and slows down the expulsion of air

Fifth- do NOT exhale 100% of your air. Anyone that's been hit with no air in their lungs will tell you it's worse than being hit with your lungs full. Keep 10-15% of your air.

Think of your kiai as a "Clap of thunder" or the sound of a gunshot. It should crack the silence like a whip.

Can it kill? I guess if the opponent had a weak heart and was untrained it would be the same as some people that have literally been "scared to death".

Can a kiai stop an animal? Yes- under the right conditions. Often the initial fright reaction makes an animal freeze (tiger's roar as an example).[/i]

Hope this helps.

I hate qoteing something that long, but i needed too,

The unbendable arm use of Ki only refres to the base line of ki development which is mind controling the body, you have proven nothing other than that you can also control the muscles of your body, and thus are in your self a base level ki practioner

However you can not explain away the higher level of ki development that includes the healing abilities of which scientific documentation is readily available

Christains call this "faith healing", othes call it reiki.

[Kajukenbopr]

I've been training in Chi Kung for the past year- do you know how much I've meditated and thought about Chi? not even once, the way I was taught, you dont think about any kind of energy, you feel it and accept it.

I study the teachings, I allow myself to get lost in the teachings, but I dont have to change my religion over the training.

[SenseiMike]

I've been training in Chi Kung for the past year- do you know how much I've meditated and thought about Chi? not even once, the way I was taught, you dont think about any kind of energy, you feel it and accept it.

I study the teachings, I allow myself to get lost in the teachings, but I dont have to change my religion over the training.

Nobody should ever have to change relegions, but some people's strict faith may limit the scope of abilities. Not meditating is fine for physical chi, but meditation is needed for the higher levels.

[Kajukenbopr]

I've been training in Chi Kung for the past year- do you know how much I've meditated and thought about Chi? not even once, the way I was taught, you dont think about any kind of energy, you feel it and accept it.

I study the teachings, I allow myself to get lost in the teachings, but I dont have to change my religion over the training.

Nobody should ever have to change relegions, but some people's strict faith may limit the scope of abilities. Not meditating is fine for physical chi, but meditation is needed for the higher levels.

Even though you need meditation for the higer levels that doesnt mean you have to change your religion over it; you only adapt your mind to concentrating and develop for a specific purpose.

If you dont open your mind to accept growth, you fail to learn anything in this life.

[shogeri]

There have been many great posts on here!

As a Christian minister, I have been a martial artist most of my life. I have practiced both the internal and external arts for over 25 years.

Chi works for those that know how to use it, and fails those who fail to (or are unable) to understand it.

Most of the time, however, it works. Especially when applied correctly.

It's just many do not know how to interpret what has happened, or misinterpret those situations in the first place.

It's not a religion. It's not trickery. It just is.

Edited November 12, 2005 by shogeri

[shogeri]

Recently, I have developed the following definition of Qi/Ki/Chi.

Qi in English is often spelled as chi. The Japanese form is ki.

Qi is a fundamental concept of everyday Asian culture or philosophy, most often defined as "air" or "breath" and, by extension, "life force" or simply put, just "energy" that is part of everything that exists.

In regards to the Martial Arts and physical health: The overall effectiveness of qi is directly related to posture, (whether moving or stationary), breathing techniques, and mental focus.

Qi is the conceptual layer of understanding that practitioners place upon the actual physiological activity relating to the movement of the various types of biological or chemical energy within the body. Essentially, using mental focus, relaxation, and posture, practitioners create a link between their mind, and that of their body, through various training methods - in order to become more sensitive to the internal processes taking place throughout their own physical being.

Acupuncture and acupressure, both work by distracting from or adding to, the pain stimuli passed through to the nervous system. These procedures help stimulate the manufacture of endorphins, which are the body's own opiates. There are many low level electrical processes occurring. Use of these pressure points have been shown as being able to affect the parts of the central nervous system related to sensation and involuntary body functions, such as immune reactions and processes that regulate a person's blood pressure, blood flow, and body temperature.

Western science is working toward an actual understanding of the qi or energies involved.

Everyday activities such as walking, or stair climbing, along with swimming, aerobics, and Martial Arts may also aid in the flow of these various types of bioelectrical energies through the pathways leading to and from the Central Nervous System, and along the path of the many pressure points within the body.

Based upon science's own inability to measure the many different types of energy involved, qi will inevitably become more categorized over the next few decades, as we get more precise instruments to measure those types of bioelectrical changes.

During this time, there will be a more scientific based understanding of qi, rather than many of the unfounded mystical or religious reasons we see in place today.

11/2/2005

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