Centerline theory

[Traditional-Fist]

..on what do you base your assumption that the okinawan centreline theory was 'enriched' by the white crane kung fu

First of all white crane was not the only kungfu style to influence the Okinawan fighting arts.

Secondly, when a whatever system of martial art comes in contact with, and is hence influenced by, an immensly rich and profound system such as Shaolin kung fu, then one assumes that at least most of the enrichment would be gainned by the less profound art i.e. the Okinawan fighting system that evolved into karate. This means that if I had to bet, my money would be on the okinawan central line theory being enriched by the CMAs and certainly not the otherway round.

do you know traditional okinawan karate

If you mean the pre-CMA influenced Okinawan fighting arts? Then no, I don't. Do you?

Do you know white crane?

Only in the context of Wing Chun.

do you know the extent of the influence?

Enough to know that at one stage okinawan karate was known as "chinese hand". Also, as a kung fu practitioner I recognize many of the chinese influences when I see many of the techniques of Okinawan karate (and japanese karate) and there are many, believe me.

you say you 'believe', but reality you are making an assumption..

I said I believe that their [okinawan fighting arts] Central Line Theory, was PROBABLY enriched....

Yes it is an assumption -not a statement of fact - and it is based on my own understanding of the martial arts. And since you said that there is "nothing pointing to anything eitherway" perhaps assumptions and educated guesses are all one can make.

Traditional-Fist

PS. I know that there are posters here who practise Okinawan Karate (post kung fu influence), perhaps they can add facts or their own views to this.

[Wong Fei]

Whether one may find it fair or not to point out an obvious parallel in Japan instead of providing first hand accounts, I will do it anyways to the detriment of my own credibility. Most everything in Japan has borrowed heavily from the Chinese. From the architecture to the writing system which in turn affected the lives of all masters in question. for someone to claim that there is little evidence of Chinese influence in one of the Japanese martial arts, regardless of whether it is intrinsically and distinctly Japanese in flavor, especially when considering the fact China is an older culture and that if it was not for China, Japan would have a completely different way of spelling the word Jujutsu, seems quite unrealistic. Now this of course is not to say that this style may not have developed on its own accord and that China has not been influenced by the Japanese through time. It simply means that I can't hardly walk two meters in Japan without recognizing something as being dually Japanese and Chinese in nature, excluding various things that may have no discernable ties to the mainland or that may have Korean influences. Again, for realities sake, just because there are thousands of miles of ocean between Asia and the United States does not diminish the existence of crows on both land masses and that unless you name a specific animal there is no way of truly stating whether it has traveled or not. But then again, there are only so many ways to kick a man, right?

By the way, at least 1/3rd of the interest that can be found in life is in its origins, the other 2/3rds being the present and the future. It would seem to me that they rely quite heavily on each other to form who and what we are.

[PatC]

IMO - center line theory is about defending your center line while attacking the opponents'

I agree.

[NotQuiteDead]

cinterline is not unique to cma. bjj, judo and thai boxing all have their use of it as well. it's more prevalent in bjj than the other two though.

Care to further explain that? While some parts of the theory may be found in those arts, I've yet to see an instructor from any of those talk about the centerline. Simply protecting your face and other vital targets isn't the same thing as the centerline theory.

Thai boxing, etc. tend to focus more on round line attacks than fighting over the centerline.

[SevenStar]

Whether one may find it fair or not to point out an obvious parallel in Japan instead of providing first hand accounts, I will do it anyways to the detriment of my own credibility. Most everything in Japan has borrowed heavily from the Chinese. From the architecture to the writing system which in turn affected the lives of all masters in question. for someone to claim that there is little evidence of Chinese influence in one of the Japanese martial arts, regardless of whether it is intrinsically and distinctly Japanese in flavor, especially when considering the fact China is an older culture and that if it was not for China, Japan would have a completely different way of spelling the word Jujutsu, seems quite unrealistic. Now this of course is not to say that this style may not have developed on its own accord and that China has not been influenced by the Japanese through time. It simply means that I can't hardly walk two meters in Japan without recognizing something as being dually Japanese and Chinese in nature, excluding various things that may have no discernable ties to the mainland or that may have Korean influences. Again, for realities sake, just because there are thousands of miles of ocean between Asia and the United States does not diminish the existence of crows on both land masses and that unless you name a specific animal there is no way of truly stating whether it has traveled or not. But then again, there are only so many ways to kick a man, right?

Not ALL japanese MA - only jujutsu. As you said, there are only so many ways to kick a man, right?

[SevenStar]

cinterline is not unique to cma. bjj, judo and thai boxing all have their use of it as well. it's more prevalent in bjj than the other two though.

Care to further explain that? While some parts of the theory may be found in those arts, I've yet to see an instructor from any of those talk about the centerline. Simply protecting your face and other vital targets isn't the same thing as the centerline theory.

Thai boxing, etc. tend to focus more on round line attacks than fighting over the centerline.

the beauty of those arts is that you WON'T hear them talk about it. One of my biggest qualms I had about CMA was that we analyzed EVERYTHING... it was ridiculous almost. yielding, borrowing, centerline, following, listening, pushing - every "energy" had a theory behind it, and you spend time discussing said theories. In bjj, thai boxing, etc. you don't learn what "yielding" is per se. you simply learn how to do it.

As for thai boxing, you are wrong. Traditionally, thaiboxing includes straight line and arcing attaks - this includes hook kicks, spinning heel kicks, spinning back fists, back kicks, etc. BUT, modern fighters in thailand found little use for these. Even still, if you watch them, you see a distinct lack of circles. The thais don't bob and weave much - that was introduced by westerners who infused muay thai with boxing. Also, thais generally throw straight line punches - not hooks and uppercuts - those are more popular among boxing/thai boxing hybrids. the most common circular technique you see out of thais are roundhouse kicks and round knees. other than that, they are typically very linear.

[NotQuiteDead]

I was mainly talking about the roundhouse, but I'm sure you have more mt experience than me (I only got to do it for a few months).

[Wong Fei]

There are so many ways to kick a man, but Japanese kick kind of like a Chinese men.

[SevenStar]

and they both punch like westerners...

[Wong Fei]

I guess a lot of them do now, huh.