Centerline theory

[SevenStar]

They may be "separate entities" today but they are LINKED by a common history/influence and therefore in many ways techniques.

 

not really. the techniques of muay thai are vastly different than kung fu. On a very basic level, it looks similar, but heck, on a basic level, it all looks similar.

 

 

I do and anyone else who is researching the martial arts to expand their knowledge.

 

unnecessary. I love looking into the history of japanese and thai arts. My knowledge will not be vastly increased if I find out there's a link between jjj and cma.

[ovine king]

http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/Chin.html

 

http://www.big-planet.org/chapter_1jujitsu.htm

[KungFuMan]

Interesting links Ovineking,

 

As you can see one can also ARGUE that jujitsu has no links with CMA. You see, it takes two to argue.

 

KungfuMan

[ovine king]

yes......

 

but the links i gave have verifiable evidence.

 

your little quote from the book doesn't provide anything similar apart from "the author says".

 

being able to argue for something doesn't mean anything.

 

in this case, given the evidence, it looks looks like jujutsu has no link to chinese arts.

 

no arguing needed, unless of course you like to argue.

[KungFuMan]

"development of Jiu-jitsu"

https://www.kyokushinbudokai.org/downloads/Guide.2.01.pdf

KungFuMan

[ovine king]

errr.... interesting but....

i) the first theory he presents is based on alexander the great as being the one who brought forth wrestling to the world.

this is taken as a begining of martial arts in china but there are accounts of organised fighting and training in china way before his appearance on the planet not to mention that the link of china to jujutsu isn't 'proved'.

ii) the second theory is based on that fellow you mentioned as being the one who brought chinese martial arts to japan.

as it was mentioned in one of the links i gave earlier, ACTUAL historic documents points to jujutsu systems being practiced long before he was around.

iii) the third theory is based on the mongolian type of wrestling which is called jiaoli (in that document) which he says is considered by some as the precusor to sumo in japan.

however, the sumo/jujutsu link is just as tenuous as the china/jujutsu link (so maybe this is a better place to find a 'beginning' of jujutsu)

iv) the last theory is again based on Chen Yuan Bin which has already been dealt with by the link i gave.

[Traditional-Fist]

I am just wondering, could it be that the chinese influence on jujitsu can be equated with the CMA influence on the development of karate in Okinawa. And as every one knows there were fighting arts in Okinawa way before the chinese input.

Could we perhaps say that the both karate and jujutsu existed before the contact with the chinese MAs but were somewhat "enriched" by them during their development and evolution?

[ovine king]

you could but that would just be conjecture.

it could easily be argued that the opposite is true; that the japanese arts influenced the chinese arts.

of course, this too would be conjecture which is why sources that point to actual recorded evidence is more valuable than just 'someone says'.

as i said earlier, when you are dealing with the human body, it's pretty hard to have any system that doesn't make reference to the left and right sides.

as such, the centreline is something that will appear in all martial arts which by their nature are about the human body.

the documents as mentioned in one of the links gave clear indications that formal organised jujutsu was practiced before the chen person was even born.

it is very unlikely that this system did not deal with the centreline.

to try and suggest that one country or even one person from one country 'gave' the centrelne theory to the martial arts of another country is rather stupid.

like sevenstar said, you can argue the sun is green if you so wish.

[Traditional-Fist]

You could easily argue that the opposite is true..

I don't believe that the opposite is that easy to argue. I don't believe that even many japanese would argue the opposite.

Going back to the Center Line theory. I believe that it is very unlikely that the okinawans themselves didn't have a central line theory of their own before the interaction with CMAs, but I believe that their CLT theory was probably enriched through the contact and the resulting "mutation" which followed the CMA interactions.

The same could be true for Jujutsu at some stage of its evolution, as there seems to be evidence of chinese influence at some point during its history.

I don't think that anyone has said that one person or country was behind the Central Line theory, but rather the enrichment of this theory. After all it is possible to state that most things we do has an inherent central line theory attached to it.

[ovine king]

and on what do you base your assumption that the okinawan centreline theory was 'enriched' by the white crane kung fu?

do you know traditional okinawan karate?

do you know white crane?

do you know the extent of the influence?

this is exactly the conjecture that i am trying to avoid.

you say you 'believe' but in reality, you are making an assumption which has no basis apart from it being something 'you think' might've happened.

point is, no proof, no evidence suggesting so, nothing pointing to anything either way.

also, there isn't just one centreline theory which is exactly why i started in this thread by describing what A centreline theory is.

also, not all styles draw the centreline in the same way.

heck, not even all wing chun draw the centreline in the same way.

in turn, this means that even if the principles are the same, the practice of them are different.