Sanchin and Naihanchi/Tekki

[Beer-monster]

"Karate begins with Naihanchi and ends with Naihanchi."

 

Replace the word Naihanchi with Sanchin and you would end with a quote often attributed to Chujun Miyagi (can't be 100% sure on that)

 

Naihanchi/Tekki is the base kata of traditional Shuri-Te/Tomari-Te lineages where Sanchin is the base of Naha-Te lineage karate. both are said to be vital, deadly and contain everything a karateka should know about the art and the combat.

 

Since such emphasis was placed by the old masters on these kata, I thought it might make enlightening conversation (though I have been wrong before ) to open a thread on these kata.

 

What do practitioners of one think of the other?

 

How does the bunaki of Naihanchi/Tekki compare to Sanchin

 

How does the internal aspects developed in the kata compare and influence future karate?

 

What of the different versions such as Higaonna Sanchin and Miyagi sanchin; or Nahanchi and Tekki?

 

Anything anyone else has to say on these kata?

 

Get typing people

[P.A.L]

I put Sanchin and Naihanchi together, tekki may look like Naihanchi but can not be compare with other two, totally other range of muscles are involved.to my understanding Sanchin and naihanchi creates power by twisting the legs and rolling up the abdomen they keep the energy inside. they teach how to generate power from abdomen and how to redirect the tension, in okinawa they used to call naihanchi dachi , ippon sanchin dachi,

 

now Miyagi version of sanchin doesn't have the depth of Higaonna sanchin, i consider the later a combative kata but Miyagi version is not combative , to me Miyagi version is important since teaches me how to control my breathing. i also use it instead of push ups, I practice a version of sanchin called Tsuru Sanchin which has the same tension and is combative too, this one teaches me

 

how to attack from very close range from a static stance. compare to Naihanchi , sanchin has less grappling inside it , so far i prefer naihanchi over sanchin although I keep the fondumental of sanchin in back of my head while doing my naihanchi. i guess there is lot to talk about here.

[searcher]

This is a very interesting thread.

 

I currently practise the Haihanchi kata that have a very Tomari flavour to them. They have helped me with the strengthening of my muscles and are quite helpful in preparing for sparring. I teach these kata at the blue and green belt level and it helps the students learn to increase both power and speed.

 

As for Sanchin I do not teach currently. I instead teach other kata for strengthening the body. IMHO Sanchin is of limited use.(let the attacks come after I said this) It is only good for upping the body's pain threshold.

 

The beginning and ending with either of these two kata, I believe that different styles would have different kata that are more important to the individual system. It is all in the eye of the karate-ka.

[Sauzin]

You know I really see Sanchin and Naihanchi to have very different focuses. Sanchin breaks things down to the fundamentals, punch, block, step, punch, block, step...and Naihanchi is much more dynamic but as a result doesn't offer the same myopic focus on the things that make everything work that Sanchin can. Sanchin is commonly used for conditioning, Naihanchi traditionally isn't. Dynamic tension is used throughout Sanchin, Naihanchi flows through hard and soft techniques. Over all I don't really think Naihanchi is any more comparable to Sanchin then any other kata. I don't think that they should be classified together just because they are both important building blocks of certain systems because they play very different rolls.

 

I think Sanchin should be in a classification of its own, because the movements are so "basic" it offers a whole different level of understanding. If you really break it down you are either extending/projecting, retracting/reseating, or encircling/redirecting in almost any movement you make. Sanchin breaks these types of movements down to their most fundamental level and lets you focus on what makes them work (breathing, stance, strength, technique…). While this is possible to do with the right focus in other kata's, it very rarely done, and is certainly not as easily or efficiently accomplished.

 

Naihanchi's are awesome in that they encompass an entirely new take on moving in combat. They strip angular stepping out of the kata but still offer techniques that work best with very specific angles. This creates a lot of confusion with people first learning the kata. I think the biggest "ahh-ha!" that people have with this kata is when they learn how to use the stepping in the Naihanchi's to achieve the angles that make these things work. That's when these kata's really click. Naihanchi's also show people how to use a horse stance. You learn how to maintain position and control while still having the ability to mobilize very quickly and powerfully if the need arises. Naihanci's force you to mobilize your hips while maintaining the structure of a stance. This lesson benefits every kata and technique you learn from that point on. In our system the Naihanchi's are where you first learn to take a controlled fall into a technique to produce power, momentum, and to shift your opponent off his feet. There are many more lessons to learn from Naihanchi of course. But these techniques and focuses make the kata uniquely beneficial in our system

[AnonymousOne]

What do practitioners of one think of the other?

 

How does the bunaki of Naihanchi/Tekki compare to Sanchin

 

How does the internal aspects developed in the kata compare and influence future karate?

 

What of the different versions such as Higaonna Sanchin and Miyagi sanchin; or Nahanchi and Tekki?

 

Anything anyone else has to say on these kata?

 

Get typing people

 

The Tekki Kata are very different from Sanchin. The purposes are different. The Tekki Kata have a large range of technique and Sanchin is much more limited. Sanchin is designed more for physcial development.

 

Tekki and Sanchin are great Kata but certainly not all encompassing. Sanchin was designed for slow movement and muscular tension for development, whereas the Tekki Kata has some fast movement in them.

 

The purposes of each Kata is quite different indeed. Our school does not practise Sanchin but I know the Kata well.

[Gekesaidaijon]

Both kata are fundamental to the schools that use them as the base kata of their lineage, but to say that they

 

contain everything a karateka should know about the art and the combat

 

is misleading IMO

 

put simply although they contain the fundamentals of a style they are not inclusive. There are no kicks in sanchin, for example.

 

Coming from a Goju background, sanchin is my beast, and boy what a beast. Early on I thought it was merely a muscle developing exercise and useful for

 

upping the body's pain threshold

 

but no.

 

The great masters of the past would not have given such huge importance to these kata if they were not hugely important. To view them as anything less than hugely important is missing the point, IMO.

 

It was after achieving dan grade that I really started to get to grips with sanchin, a bit late really, but possibly a process I needed to go through.

 

Sanchin shows us how to generate tremendous power from a variety of sources, and together these then can manifest in all techniques. For example projecting our bodyweight into a technique whilst maintianing a stable base to ensure correct use of ground reaction forces through stable body alignment is necessary for both a simple punch as well as a spinning back kick to the same degree. Do either without bodyweight or with poor alignment and our kick or punch is weak. Sanchin teaches us this, and more. But beautifully it does so from such a "basic" form.

 

There is of course so much more.

 

But in Goju the application of Sanchin in all other kata is essential, even with GDI where it is obvious. But with other high grade kata also containing sanchin movements within the kata, e.g sanseru, the importance of sanchin is oncce more emphasised. The essence of other kata clearly require sanchin to manifest properly, it is in the kata themselves!!

 

The originators of these kata didn't include such moves for fun ...............!

 

In his outline of karate-do Miyagi also includes tensho as one of the fundamental kata with the two of this post

[Shorin Ryuu]

i also use it instead of push ups, I practice a version of sanchin called Tsuru Sanchin which has the same tension and is combative too, this one teaches me

 

P.A.L.: I've seen a video of Chuck Chandler performing Tsuru sanchin (from what I hear, it's a more "ShuriTe" form of Sanchin). It appeared to me to take a different approach than the heavy tension of Naha Sanchin (not to say there isn't tension...I just couldn't tell right off hand). I haven't done it or had anyone show it to me in person, so I can't speak for it. Does this sound anywhere near accurate to what you've observed?

 

As other people have noted, I feel the Naihanchi kata have more fighting applications than the Sanchin. Not to say Sanchin does not have any. To me it just seems that Naihanchi is more oriented towards that while Sanchin is more oriented towards training. Regardless, I'm not as able to comment about Sanchin as much, since I've not had that much experience with it other than just observing it a few times.

 

Gekesaidaijon: In response to saying that Sanchin does not have any kicks (I assume this applies to Naihanchi as well), this is the more "hidden" way of doing the kata. It is more "Chinese" to disguise kicks as merely steps, so usually a step indicates a kick or other significant leg usage. As you mentioned, the masters did not include moves in kata "just for fun". Carrying this a step further (pardon the pun), every leg movement is there for a purpose.

 

I do feel that if you know Naihanchi really well, you would be well suited for a fight. I love working on Naihanchi because getting better at those kata makes all my other ones that much better. The fundamentals in Naihanchi really help you to understand the grappling context of many of the other kata as well.

 

I've also done a version of Naihanchi that goes forwards and backwards as opposed to side-to-side, which is interesting. It helps you to better visualize how to utilize or perceive the bunkai.

[searcher]

 

I do feel that if you know Naihanchi really well, you would be well suited for a fight. I love working on Naihanchi because getting better at those kata makes all my other ones that much better. The fundamentals in Naihanchi really help you to understand the grappling context of many of the other kata as well.

 

I believe this is due to the great Choki Motobu supposedly performing this series of kata 500 times a day. That must have been one bored guy. I have however seen a great improvement in fighting ability after students learning this set of kata. I am not saying that it is the only circumstance that lead to their improvement, but what are the chances?

[Shorin Ryuu]

? My comment didn't have anything to do with Choki Motobu (as great a fighter as he was and as much as he liked Naihanchi). It was just from my own experience and the experiences/teachings of/discussions with others.

[P.A.L]

Shorin Ryuu , you are right, Tsuru Sanchin is a shuri kata through matsumura family style, i got it from sensei Lindsey and sensei Thampson. the tension in crane katas is kinda soft ,not in the muscles rather in tendons, at wrist and forearms.