Can ANYBODY earn a black belt?

[Shorinryu Sensei]

"just because your a black belt does not mean you can fight"

 

In my organization, sparring is part of the testing for Black Belt. If you cannot fight effectively, including multiple rounds against higher ranks, you do not pass the test.

 

Therefore, you must be able to fight in order to be a Black Belt.

 

Be careful. You had better distinguish between point sparring and fighting. That'll get a lot of comments.

 

This is VERY true! I personally know quite a number of accomplished black belt TOURNAMENT fighters that are very adept at "scoring points" in tournaments, but have gotten their butts handed to them quite easily in a street fight. Not to mention any specific system, but I find it interesting that every one of them has trained in the same system, or offshoot of that system (different instructors and schools), and holds rank from a 1st degree BB to a 4th degree BB.

 

Years ago there was a kid (18 years old) by the name of Brandon Bennet that was the top ranked ADULT sparring champ (open, all style tournaments) for the Pacific NorthWest. That's Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming...and possibly N/S Dakota..not sure on those last two states. Anyway, the last day of his senior high school year, he got into a real fight with a kid that had 6 MONTHS of training in boxing. Brandon was down and out of the fight in 20 seconds or less from what I was told. When I asked him about it, Brandon told me it was a fair fight...they squared off and he saw it coming. The boxer closed and dropped him...pure and simple. What does that tell you?

 

As I recall, Brandon hung up his belt shortly after that and quit the arts.

[cathal]

I tend to agree; there is a big difference between the two. That's a good reason not to get too caught up in the tournament circuit.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

I tend to agree; there is a big difference between the two. That's a good reason not to get too caught up in the tournament circuit.

 

Exactly! That is why I view tournaments as "Play Time". Go out and have some fun, but win or lose, don't take them as a serious measure of your skills.

[pineapple]

Therefore, you must be able to fight in order to be a Black Belt.

 

Question: Does this mean that some people can never be a black belt?

 

Not everyone has what it takes to be a good fighter!......in my opinion anyway

[Meguro]

In order to survive as a business, schools have to make a black belt attainable by the average gal/guy who works hard at it. Are all black belts equal? No.

[cathal]

I will with merguro, it really all depends on the dedication of the individual. Combine that with quality of instruction and the training cycle, and you've got varying degrees of capability.

 

My sensei has told me that when I get a black belt I'll finally be ready to learn karate. Its a very inciteful thought.

[Shorinryu Sensei]

Therefore, you must be able to fight in order to be a Black Belt.

 

Question: Does this mean that some people can never be a black belt?

 

Not everyone has what it takes to be a good fighter!......in my opinion anyway

 

IMO, being able to be a great fighter is not as important as being a good person. I would give a black belt to a person that worked hard, had the knowledge and abilities to teach what they had learned, and not be a good fighter.

 

Personally, sparring-wise...I don't think I'm a very good fighter. I don't take it that seriously, tend to goof around and "play" to much with the people I'm sparring, and just really don't concentrate that well on trying to get that point, or do that technique on my opponent.

 

Yeah, I almost always win...but it isn't because I really try to. My senior student always gives me a good run for the money, nd I only get serious with him when he's ahead of me in the fight. He's beaten me a few times...but I like that because that means he's learned something.

[tkdBill]

"just because your a black belt does not mean you can fight"

 

In my organization, sparring is part of the testing for Black Belt. If you cannot fight effectively, including multiple rounds against higher ranks, you do not pass the test.

 

Therefore, you must be able to fight in order to be a Black Belt.

 

Be careful. You had better distinguish between point sparring and fighting. That'll get a lot of comments.

 

Of course it will get a lot of comments. It was a good answer to a good questions.

 

The question was not whether a black belt can prevail against any situation, any fighter of any style, even a skilled street fighter. I was responding to Muaythaiboxer's argument: "just because your a black belt does not mean you can fight"

 

In my organization, sparring (not point sparring) is a requirement for each candidate's Black Belt test. The candidate must be judged by the panel as being effective at sparring. Many do not meet this standard and are given a "no change" grading.

 

Some will train harder and try again at a future testing, eventually earning their Black Belt. Some will give up and not try again. These people cannot be Black Belts, but only because they make the choice to not perservere.

 

My answer to the question posed by this thread: Anyone can learn to be a Black Belt, but not everyone can be a Black Belt. Unless you are willing to learn to fight effectively, you should not ever attain the Black Belt rank.

 

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[Shorinryu Sensei]

But then again, a lot depends on what you consider a black belt to be. We don't put any super human ideals on a black belt. To us, it is just another progression of skills with certain requirements to meet, just like any other belt. If you can make it up through the kyu ranks successfully, there is no reason you can't make it through the black belts also eventually. So for us, yes, anyone that is willing to put forth the effort and work required to improve from belt to belt can certainly attain a black belt.

 

tkdbill said...

In my organization, sparring (not point sparring) is a requirement for each candidate's Black Belt test. The candidate must be judged by the panel as being effective at sparring.

 

Whether they score points, or free sparring..it's still sparring with rules. There are judges/referree's there, rules are enforced no doubt and it is a controlled environment. I'm sure that you probably wear protective equiptment, a ref starts and ends the contest. If somebody gets hurt, I'm sure there is a timeout to let the combatant regroup and see if he/she can continue, etc. So what's the difference besides not stopping to call a point? It's still sparring in a controlled, regulated environment.

 

I'm simply pointing out here that you are judging a person on their sparring ability, not their ability to defend themselves. There is a HUGE difference.

 

To give you an example from my own experience, a student of mine, Rod C. has been with me for over 7 years now. He is well overdue for his black belt test and we make jokes about his being on "the 20 year black belt plan". He's perfectly fine with it. He is probably my hardest working student, but has problems remembering the kata and just hasn't quite "got it" when it comes to certain aspects that I require him to know and be able to do for his black belt...the same as in any other belt. Sparring in the dojo, Rod works and tries very hard, but lacks the smoothness I require for him to be at what I consider a black belt level. He is aware of this and continues to make every effort to improve. It's a slow process for him, and we're both very patient. However, I have no doubt whatsoever in my mind that in a street fight, where life or death is at stake, Rod would be a person that I would consider to be a very dangerous person to fight against. At 52 years old, Rod is built like a bull, fairly fast, hits VERY hard, and can take you to the ground and do some serious damage to you real quick.

 

So I would say that yes, Rod can fight and hold his own, but he lacks the finer points of skill that I require in his movement and technique to test for his BB. Hopefully he will be able to overcome this by the end of the year...but I said that szame thing last year too!

[tkdBill]

Shorinryu Sensei:

 

I believe that any MA sparring proficiency will give a person some ability to defend himself in some situations, while there is no MA training that will prepare a person for every possible self-defense situation.

 

Even the white belt that I taught to punch correctly last night is better able to defend himself than the person who decided not to step out onto the workout floor. Certainly a Black Belt who managed to repeatedly demonstrate sparring proficiency at testing will be able to defend himself in some or even most situations.

 

I don't think that being able to prevail in all self-defense situations should be a requirement for BB, but all BB's should have some ability to fight.

 

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